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Mt. Tabor High Shooting

Deacfreak07 said:
It seems to me that one of two things must be true. 1) either we have more gun violence than peers because we have too many guns or 2) we have more gun violence because we are a fundamentally more violent populace than peer countries.

I think both are probably true.
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No doubt the US has a violent history. But so does Greece. Same with Germany. There are many countries with violent histories that do not have anywhere close to the gun violence rates in the US. But if you dumped tens of millions of more guns into those countries they would become much more violent overnight.
 
Rafi said:
No doubt the US has a violent history. But so does Greece. Same with Germany. There are many countries with violent histories that do not have anywhere close to the gun violence rates in the US. But if you dumped tens of millions of more guns into those countries they would become much more violent overnight.
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Probably. But their histories are in the past. We keep our violent history as a proud part of our present.
 
As a data point, I took a man to breakfast this morning who grew up fiscally not able to have meat in his diet if his dad didn't max out his tags for the year. I'm visiting WV for the holiday. Everytime I do, I'm reminded of some of the unbelievable poverty in our world.
 
Donkey Deac Doug said:
As a data point, I took a man to breakfast this morning who grew up fiscally not able to have meat in his diet if his dad didn't max out his tags for the year. I'm visiting WV for the holiday. Everytime I do, I'm reminded of some of the unbelievable poverty in our world.
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Universal background checks, banning ghost guns, magazine capacity limits, and red flag laws would not prohibit this person from hunting deer.
 
Donkey Deac Doug said:
As a data point, I took a man to breakfast this morning who grew up fiscally not able to have meat in his diet if his dad didn't max out his tags for the year. I'm visiting WV for the holiday. Everytime I do, I'm reminded of some of the unbelievable poverty in our world.
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I'm not sure that those in West Virginia, as meager and unfortunate as their situations are, really shows the unbelievable poverty in our "world". A poor person in America would be living pretty well with the same income in other countries.


Also, did the news from Florida about the former Marine that was honorably discharged that killed a family including a 3 month old baby craddled in his mother's (also shot dead) arms change your opinion on just letting any former military service member be eligible for an automatic weapon? Do you now understand how simplistic and short-sighted such an approach would be?

As a reminder, your post on the subject:

Donkey Deac Doug said:
Like I said, I'm comfortable with restrictions on who can own automatic weapons. I don't want little man up there at Subway with a fully automatic weapon. But I would love it if retired Marines had the option to own an automatic weapon. Locked up in a gun safe. I'm also good with a red flag taking it away from him/her for the most part.
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And the story:
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/05/1034...ding-a-mother-who-was-still-cradling-her-baby

A man wearing full-body armor fatally shot four people, including a mother and the 3-month-old baby she was cradling, a Florida sheriff said Sunday. The shooter, a former Marine, then engaged in a gunfight with police and deputies before he was wounded and surrendered. An 11-year-old girl who was shot seven times survived.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/05/us/shooting-lakeland-florida.html

In addition to serving in Afghanistan, Mr. Riley had also deployed to Iraq during his four years in the Marines and three years as a reservist, the sheriff said. Mr. Riley had been honorably discharged, he said, and had “virtually no criminal history.”
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Rafi said:
Universal background checks, banning ghost guns, magazine capacity limits, and red flag laws would not prohibit this person from hunting deer.
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Or even, most likely, inhibit them in any way.
 
deacvision7 said:
I'm not sure that those in West Virginia, as meager and unfortunate as their situations are, really shows the unbelievable poverty in our "world". A poor person in America would be living pretty well with the same income in other countries.


Also, did the news from Florida about the former Marine that was honorably discharged that killed a family including a 3 month old baby craddled in his mother's (also shot dead) arms change your opinion on just letting any former military service member be eligible for an automatic weapon? Do you now understand how simplistic and short-sighted such an approach would be?

As a reminder, your post on the subject:



And the story:
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/05/1034...ding-a-mother-who-was-still-cradling-her-baby



https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/05/us/shooting-lakeland-florida.html
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Dude was on meth. Meth is a helluva drug.
 
dartsndeacs said:
Dude was on meth. Meth is a helluva drug.
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No doubt. Don't do meth.

But, wouldn't that suggest to not let anybody, regardless of service in the military or how they were discharged, be a way to obtaining fully automatic weapons meant to do nothing to cause mass destruction and death?

I am simply suggesting that just because a person proudly, and honorably, served in the Marine Corps, or any other branch of the Armed Forces, they should **NOT** be given special consideration for owning fully automatic weapons. Am I wrong?
 
deacvision7 said:
No doubt. Don't do meth.

But, wouldn't that suggest to not let anybody, regardless of service in the military or how they were discharged, be a way to obtaining fully automatic weapons meant to do nothing to cause mass destruction and death?

I am simply suggesting that just because a person proudly, and honorably, served in the Marine Corps, or any other branch of the Armed Forces, they should **NOT** be given special consideration for owning fully automatic weapons. Am I wrong?
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Would an automatic weapon made the wife or baby deader?

Would a red flag law have caught him?

As a drug user, he was violating federal law when he shot her.
 
Donkey Deac Doug said:
Would an automatic weapon made the wife or baby deader?

Would a red flag law have caught him?

As a drug user, he was violating federal law when he shot her.
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I see that you avoided the key question.

Should a former Marine be granted access to an automatic weapon simply because they are a former Marine? Former Marine = good to get fully automated weaponry as civilians. No mention of red flag laws. No mention of drugs. Just -- former Marine? Automatic weapon! Yeee HAW!

Donkey Deac Doug said:
But I would love it if retired Marines had the option to own an automatic weapon.
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You don't want to back away from that statement, do you? You still feel confident in saying any former Marine should be able to own a fully automatic firearm, correct?

Also, a comment like "would X have made the victim or victims 'deader' probably isn't a good talking point for the side you purport to be on. Yikes.
 
Donkey Deac Doug said:
As a drug user, he was violating federal law when he shot her.
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Also, man, what a relief to know that every single person, REGARDLESS OF MILITARY HISTORY, can be known to be a drug user and stopped from doing heinous crimes.

Because, as a drug user, that would have apparently stopped him from obtaining a weapon of murd... Oh.

What else do you have, Knight?
 
I don't even know how to reach you on this because you are just so fucking out there being reverent for people that happened to serve this country.

I love our military. My wife is the result of two Marines. But I don't put anybody, military included, above reproach. Yet you do, Knight. You IDOLIZE them, and that's bad. That's very, very bad.

I hope you think critically some more about the situation...
 
Shame we don't take better care of our current and former military persons to ensure they are not suffering (ptsd etc) in silence. Our pro military party has never really cared about the health of our soldiers, sailors, and air-...people after the bullets stop flying.
 
deacvision7 said:
I don't even know how to reach you on this because you are just so fucking out there being reverent for people that happened to serve this country.

I love our military. My wife is the result of two Marines. But I don't put anybody, military included, above reproach. Yet you do, Knight. You IDOLIZE them, and that's bad. That's very, very bad.

I hope you think critically some more about the situation...
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Honestly, the rate of ptsd in retired former active duty military is probably really high and should be screened for before they are given any kind of gun.
 
deaconson said:
Shame we don't take better care of our current and former military persons to ensure they are not suffering (ptsd etc) in silence. Our pro military party has never really cared about the health of our soldiers, sailors, and air-...people after the bullets stop flying.
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This.
 
Donkey Deac Doug said:
Would an automatic weapon made the wife or baby deader?
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Maybe. Hundreds of rounds were fired in this case, which does not happen quickly without semi-automatic weapons and large magazines. A young girl was hit 7 times but somehow lived. It sounds like this guy developed severe paranoia, probably triggered or worsened by meth, and went on a shooting rampage. It may have been much less deadly if he only had access to a shotgun.
 
deacon14 said:
For one, I think you are probably undervaluing the percentage of gun owners that fully support the NRA's stance on preventing any sort of reasonable gun ownership regulations. As far as the rest of it, I more or less am on the same page as you. There's a lot of gun owners that believe stricter gun ownership policies would be good for society, but want to keep their guns so bad that they certainly aren't going to take any action to make that happen and may even continue donating to the NRA.

Actions speak louder than words, and there's a lot more gun owners that say they want better gun laws and then do nothing about it than gun owners that want better gun laws and are actually willing to pursue changes to make that happen.
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I also believe the thinking is that stricter gun laws or banning firearms altogether would only hurt the lawful gun owners and do nothing to stop the criminals.
 
DeaconCav06 said:
There’s a distinction between responsible gun owners and irresponsible “gun nuts”. And painting anybody that owns a gun as a gun nut is counter productive and insulting. It’s only going to result in responsible gun owners pushing back on reasonable gun control measures because of a feeling of persecution.

We don’t know anything about the gun involved, how it was purchased, how it got in the hands of the shooter.

This is an absolute tragedy. And the fact that a HS student had access to a gun is inexcusable. There needs to be real change and common sense laws enacted to prevent that type of access. There’s no excuse for any person that age to be able to get a gun in his or her hand.
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Agreed.
 
At the end of the day we have 400M guns in this country and zero way of stopping them from getting into the hands of people who want to do bad.

So I guess we have two choices, massive gun reform where we collect and destroy 95% of those weapons and make it much harder to get a firearm, or a society that mirrors the American West of the 1800's where everyone carried to protect themselves.

Sadly I think even the "responsible gun owners" would prefer the latter scenario. Which means gun violence is only going to continue to rise and nobody's children will be ever be safe.

If any of our responsible gun owners ever lose a child or family member to gun violence, all you will need to do is walk in front of a mirror if you want to know who is responsible for their death.
 
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