• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Colin Powell Dead

 
I posted that because I think he's a smart and thoughtful and perceptive person, fully spot on about HRC, and right about a lot in his career, and for those reasons (and the fact that people think he's a decent man), he can't be absolved for the things he got wrong in death. His long and comfortable life after public service is more than was afforded to the many victims of the Iraq war generations later.
 
I certainly didn't have Townie on my "Piss On Their Still Warm Grave Tunnels Bingo Card."
 
Liquid Karma said:
I certainly didn't have Townie on my "Piss On Their Still Warm Grave Tunnels Bingo Card."
Click to expand...

I can see how you'd be surprised. Townie didn't even acknowledge Rumsfeld's death in the Political Chat Thread.

https://www.ogboards.com/forums/sho...come?p=3717477&highlight=Rumsfeld#post3717477

He chose to argue with jh about minimum wage instead of going in on him. I have noticed that some people are a lot more harsh toward Powell than Rumsfeld, Cheney, or other key figures besides Bush.
 
PhDeac said:
I can see how you'd be surprised. Townie didn't even acknowledge Rumsfeld's death in the Political Chat Thread.

https://www.ogboards.com/forums/sho...come?p=3717477&highlight=Rumsfeld#post3717477

He chose to argue with jh about minimum wage instead of going in on him. I have noticed that some people are a lot more harsh toward Powell than Rumsfeld, Cheney, or other key figures besides Bush.
Click to expand...

Yes, you should definitely judge your friends by which defenseless dead people they chose not to kick.
 
PhDeac said:
I can see how you'd be surprised. Townie didn't even acknowledge Rumsfeld's death in the Political Chat Thread.

https://www.ogboards.com/forums/sho...come?p=3717477&highlight=Rumsfeld#post3717477

He chose to argue with jh about minimum wage instead of going in on him. I have noticed that some people are a lot more harsh toward Powell than Rumsfeld, Cheney, or other key figures besides Bush.
Click to expand...

Maybe because Rumsfeld and Cheney are(were) acknowledged pieces of shit and Powell was not?
 
TownieDeac said:
I posted that because I think he's a smart and thoughtful and perceptive person, fully spot on about HRC, and right about a lot in his career, and for those reasons (and the fact that people think he's a decent man), he can't be absolved for the things he got wrong in death. His long and comfortable life after public service is more than was afforded to the many victims of the Iraq war generations later.
Click to expand...

And how has your long and comfortable life compared to Iraqis the same age? That difference has come about because people have made difficult, sometimes brutal, sometimes wrong, decisions on your behalf. That war was a mistake, and I think everyone (in hindsight) more or less agrees with that. But I don't think that means that Powell (a) blindly supported it; (b) didn't believe that the end result would create a better world for the coming generations of Iraqis; (c) is the reason the war was handled so poorly once it began; or (d) should be damned for it.

He was an American politician and a military leader. Show me one of those who, in hindsight, holds up to your standards.
 
PhDeac said:
I can see how you'd be surprised. Townie didn't even acknowledge Rumsfeld's death in the Political Chat Thread.

https://www.ogboards.com/forums/sho...come?p=3717477&highlight=Rumsfeld#post3717477

He chose to argue with jh about minimum wage instead of going in on him. I have noticed that some people are a lot more harsh toward Powell than Rumsfeld, Cheney, or other key figures besides Bush.
Click to expand...

What I said about Rumsfeld was you could give him an enema and bury him in a matchbox. Far fewer redeeming qualities about him, no fawning thread for liberals to do their respectability politics in.
 
ABCDeac said:
And how has your long and comfortable life compared to Iraqis the same age? That difference has come about because people have made difficult, sometimes brutal, sometimes wrong, decisions on your behalf. That war was a mistake, and I think everyone (in hindsight) more or less agrees with that. But I don't think that means that Powell (a) blindly supported it; (b) didn't believe that the end result would create a better world for the coming generations of Iraqis; (c) is the reason the war was handled so poorly once it began; or (d) should be damned for it.

He was an American politician and a military leader. Show me one of those who, in hindsight, holds up to your standards.
Click to expand...

I reserve my respect for politicians and military personnel with whom I may disagree on some political issues like Mike Gravel, may he Rest In Peace. He worked to end the draft in Vietnam and read the Pentagon Papers in the congressional record. He may have done some nasty stuff for counterintelligence, but he vocally opposed military intervention after his service. The same goes for figures like Eugene McCarthy; both examples too libertarian for my tastes but examples I can think of with the kinds of backgrounds you describe that didn't wontonly cheerlead our nation into a war they were in a position to slow down or stop.
 
ABCDeac said:
And how has your long and comfortable life compared to Iraqis the same age? That difference has come about because people have made difficult, sometimes brutal, sometimes wrong, decisions on your behalf. That war was a mistake, and I think everyone (in hindsight) more or less agrees with that. But I don't think that means that Powell (a) blindly supported it; (b) didn't believe that the end result would create a better world for the coming generations of Iraqis; (c) is the reason the war was handled so poorly once it began; or (d) should be damned for it.

He was an American politician and a military leader. Show me one of those who, in hindsight, holds up to your standards.
Click to expand...

Whose decisions made sure that Townie growing up in Winston-Salem in the 80s and 90s wasn't like living in Fallujah during the Iraq War?

Can you give us a timeline and some names?
 
PhDeac said:
Whose decisions made sure that Townie growing up in Winston-Salem in the 80s and 90s wasn't like living in Fallujah during the Iraq War?

Can you give us a timeline and some names?
Click to expand...

Abraham Lincoln
 
PhDeac said:
Whose decisions made sure that Townie growing up in Winston-Salem in the 80s and 90s wasn't like living in Fallujah during the Iraq War?

Can you give us a timeline and some names?
Click to expand...

Let's see...this could be a sincere question, or it could be PhDeac being PhDeac. I choose the latter, and won't engage. Have fun in the Tunnels echo chamber.
 
I always do like the idea that we are insulated from the worst of the world because of the America Fuck Yeah incredible military might in comparison to simply being separated from most of the world by giant oceans and bordered by two large friendly neighbors. Further emphasized by the rapid growth and nostalgia of a forgotten post-WW2 time when the rest of the world was a burning pile of rubble.
 
You don't have an answer, because that's a silly platitude that people like you don't actually think about when you say it. It's just something you've been told and you accept. Instead of being thoughtful, you make drive-by posts and throw insults around and anybody who dares to question you.
 
ABCDeac said:
Let's see...this could be a sincere question, or it could be PhDeac being PhDeac. I choose the latter, and won't engage. Have fun in the Tunnels echo chamber.
Click to expand...

No -- seriously -- what was beneficial about the Iraq War?
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
I always do like the idea that we are insulated from the worst of the world because of the America Fuck Yeah incredible military might in comparison to simply being separated from most of the world by giant oceans and bordered by two large friendly neighbors. Further emphasized by the rapid growth and nostalgia of a forgotten post-WW2 time when the rest of the world was a burning pile of rubble.
Click to expand...

And more broadly, as we’re on track to spend $9Trillion on the Pentagon over the next decade while we quibble over whether we can upgrade roads and bridges and give seniors and the poor access to dental care, I sincerely don’t understand those who want absolutely no scrutiny for our warmongers.
 
TenaciousKory said:
No -- seriously -- what was beneficial about the Iraq War?
Click to expand...

To whom? I am sure it was beneficial to many people, both at the time and even now, in hindsight.

As a whole, that war was a mistake in my opinion. And I was against it at the time and I think Powell was hesitant-at-best and in an extremely difficult political and professional position.

But I do believe that many of the decision-makers at that time believed that getting rid of Saddam and liberating Iraq was going to result in a better life for generations of Iraqis to come. Others were concerned about oil. Others were financially vested in the military industrial complex.

Similarly, I think Truman believed that annihilating Japan was good for America and, arguably good for many subsequent generations of Japanese. I think FDR decided it was worthwhile to kill millions to win WW2. Just as many other powerful decision makers, politicians and military leaders have made decisions for centuries. But they may have had ulterior motives. Certainly people within their administrations did.

And you can cherry pick each of those decisions and countless others and, depending on your perspective and how it impacted your life (or your ancestors’ lives) you may well have a point of view that makes it seem obvious that the right call was made, or not made. And others can differ. But that use of hindsight and bias is not fair to the decision makers, in my opinion, and tends to yield a hypocritical viewpoint.

The benefit of hindsight is a really powerful weapon often wielded by people who’ve rarely made important, difficult decisions to condemn others after the fact.

I am sure many Iraqis condemn Powell. Many probably praised his actions at the time and many likely still do. Many today condemn most of our past leaders, all of whom had flaws and made some terrible decisions but who, as a whole, made decisions that resulted in Townie’s upbringing in Winston-Salem to differ markedly from the upbringing of Iraqis during the same time frame (and after). I guess that is a platitude now. But is it untrue?

Powell seems like a clear “better-than-most” type of leader and politician to me, and I think that if those types were more universally praised (despite their flaws and shortcoming and bad decisions) we’d have more of them interested in actually leading, which would make the world a better place as a whole. That’s not calling for whitewashing, but it is calling for an attempt to look at the situation objectively without the crutch of hindsight.

Carry on. I’ll try to not come back.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top