GOAT PG Discussion

MHBDemon said:

Ok. But i honestly wasn’t trying to troll with the win shares metric. I don’t know how well they are thought of compared to different baseball metrics that I’m familiar with. I’m guessing that most advanced metrics would favor Paul. I think there’s room to value team accomplishments. But why does Stockton get the nod over him for longevity and not CP3?

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Stockton's peak seasons were better than CP's peak seasons. CP's longevity so far is not as long as Stockton's longevity. Like I said in the post you quoted, if CP has 3-4 more very productive years like Stockton did, I'll put him above Isiah.

Everybody knows this but it's worth repeating. CP is the best modern PG in terms of assists and steals. Stockton leads those categories all time by a huge margin. CP has about 2/3 Stockton's assists and 3/4 Stockton's steals in about 3/4 Stockton's games. So CP has to keep this going for awhile to have a chance.

Deacfreak07 said:

Thomas couldn’t even win a spot on the dream team.

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The fact Isiah was so hated works in his favor. Also that team only had two PGs and only needed two PGs, Magic and Stockton. I think Team USA typically only has two PGs anyway.

PhDeac said:

Stockton's peak seasons were better than CP's peak seasons. CP's longevity so far is not as long as Stockton's longevity. Like I said in the post you quoted, if CP has 3-4 more very productive years like Stockton did, I'll put him above Isiah.

Everybody knows this but it's worth repeating. CP is the best modern PG in terms of assists and steals. Stockton leads those categories all time by a huge margin. CP has about 2/3 Stockton's assists and 3/4 Stockton's steals in about 3/4 Stockton's games. So CP has to keep this going for awhile to have a chance.





The fact Isiah was so hated works in his favor. Also that team only had two PGs and only needed two PGs, Magic and Stockton. I think Team USA typically only has two PGs anyway.

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This still doesn’t explain why Stockton gets nod over Isiah and Paul doesn’t, when Paul’s career is much more similar to Stockton’s.

PhDeac said:

Stockton's peak seasons were better than CP's peak seasons. CP's longevity so far is not as long as Stockton's longevity. Like I said in the post you quoted, if CP has 3-4 more very productive years like Stockton did, I'll put him above Isiah.

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I think CP ends the Isiah debate if he gets a ring. I agree with you about Stockton.

MHBDemon said:

This still doesn’t explain why Stockton gets nod over Isiah and Paul doesn’t, when Paul’s career is much more similar to Stockton’s.

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I have Stockton over Isiah because he made two finals and led one of the best teams of the 90s, played at a high level into his 40s, and leads two major statistical categories. That’s what I feel a PG needs to do to make it over the best player on two NBA Champions who managed to take down Jordan and Magic to get there.

CP could match those accomplishments, but he hasn't yet. If he does, I’ll put him above Isiah.

CP3 has 10 All-NBA selections, which puts him in company with Baylor, Bird, Wilt, Magic, and the Admiral. If he's selected again this year, which he seems on track to be, that would elevate him to the MJ, Pettit, Oscar, Chuck, Havlicek, Russell, and Stockton group.

Isiah has 5 All-NBA selections, the same as Bob Davies, Neil Johnston, Giannis, Tiny, Kawhi, Jerry Lucas, Grant Hill, Sidney Moncrief, Willis Reed, Amare Stoudemire, Tim Hardaway, Chris Webber, Clyde Drexler, Slater Martin, Blake Griffin, Kevin Johnson, Mitch Richmond, Ben Wallace, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Yao Ming.

Those comps seem about appropriate.

BiffTannen said:

I'm gonna need some advanced stats on Bob Cousy and Walt Frazier.

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I was also going to mention Cousey, he played when they just referred to them as guards, not pg or sg; but was probably the guy who influenced the pg's of today.

I'm old but not old enough to remember Cousy and only have dim memories of guys like Oscar, Frazier, White and Maravich toward their ends. I still think Stockton is the best PG I've ever seen. And I would seriously downgrade Thomas. My guess, throwing in Oscar and Cousy:

Stockton
Oscar
Magic
Curry
Paul
Nash
Cousy
Kidd
Thomas
The Glove - best defensive PG I've seen

cville deac said:

I'm old but not old enough to remember Cousy and only have dim memories of guys like Oscar, Frazier, White and Maravich toward their ends. I still think Stockton is the best PG I've ever seen. And I would seriously downgrade Thomas. My guess, throwing in Oscar and Cousy:

Stockton
Oscar
Magic
Curry
Paul
Nash
Cousy
Kidd
Thomas
The Glove - best defensive PG I've seen

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Sold list. I’d have Maravich on it, ahead of Kidd and Thomas, probably.

Where does Tony Parker measure in the advanced metrics?

IF you consider Oscar and Magic point guards, put them 1 and 2 in whichever order. They were both basketball players who transcend position and could compete for GOAT at 1, 2, or even 3. Magic could compete for GOAT at 4 and would have made a very good 5.
Oscar, Jerry West, Walt Frazier, and Earl Monroe all played before there was a clear distinction between 1 and 2. They played "guard". As an old guy, I remember Jerry West and Walt Frazier well, Oscar and Earl Monroe less well. Put Jerry West in your top 5 and Clyde just behind him (in my opinion, though others might argue differently). Steph Curry similarly blurs the traditional lines in the modern game.
I have no memory of Bob Cousy but he certainly deserves mention as the first true "point guard", a pass-first facilitator much like John Stockton. And of course his teams won championships.

cville deac's post reminded me of Maravich. I did not get to see him play very much because his NBA teams were never very good and did not get on television often; the number of NBA and college basketball games on television were very limited at that time. I remember that he could handle the ball with the best of them, but I have never thought of him as a point guard. Again, the distinctions in that era were not clear. I do not believe he was as good defensively as Jerry West, certainly not as good on that end of the floor as Frazier. If he is considered a point guard, he would be a shoot-first point guard, like Curry.

Deac@Heart said:

cville deac's post reminded me of Maravich. I did not get to see him play very much because his NBA teams were never very good and did not get on television often; the number of NBA and college basketball games on television were very limited at that time. I remember that he could handle the ball with the best of them, but I have never thought of him as a point guard. Again, the distinctions in that era were not clear. I do not believe he was as good defensively as Jerry West, certainly not as good on that end of the floor as Frazier. If he is considered a point guard, he would be a shoot-first point guard, like Curry.

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You’ll enjoy you tube on him

Of all the players being discussed, Magic would be selected first in any draft by any sane person. CP could win the next 3 championships and would still be way behind Magic.

Magic is point guard GOAT by a mile. And I hated Magic growing up.

/thread

Shame on all of you.

Isaiah Thomas also has an NCAA Championship.

From an advanced stats/efficiency perspective, it's probably Chris. Here are the top 5 in a few advanced stats categories.

Win Shares (cumulative): Stockton 207.70 (6th all-time); Chris 191.85 (9th); Oscar 189.21 (12th); Magic 155.79 (24th); Gary Payton 145.53 (30th)
Win Shares/48: Chris .2400 (5th); Magic .2249 (8th); Stockton .2087 (18th); Oscar .2059 (20th); Steph .2052 (22nd)
PER: Chris 24.71 (11th); Magic 24.11 (17th); Steph 23.93 (18th); Oscar 23.17 (25th); Westbrook (!!!) 22.84 (29th)... Stockton is 40th if you're wondering
Box Plus/Minus: Magic 7.54 (3rd); Chris 7.32 (5th); Stockton 6.84 (9th); Steph 6.58 (11th); Lillard 4.72 (27th)
VORP: Stockton 106.53 (3rd); Chris 92.17 (6th); Magic 79.97 (14th); Kidd 73.47 (19th); Payton 62.52 (26th)... Steph is 27th here

There's a clear top 3: Magic, Stockton, Chris. Stockton wins the cumulative stats (cumulative Win Shares/VORP) on account of his longevity, although a few more high level seasons and Chris catches him there (but certainly not in gross assists or steals... those are some of the most unbreakable records in sports). In the non-cumulative stats, Chris and Magic are 1 and 2 in every category. You can also see Steph as a #4 and likely Oscar as #5 based on the various placements; obviously Steph has the opportunity to improve on things. The argument for Chris essentially amounts to the fact that he's the second best in cumulative/longevity stats (and not too far off of first... sorta) while being either the best or second-best in the per-game stats.

It's the non-stats stuff that pushes Magic past the others for most: the titles, the showmanship, the Showtime Lakers. And I do think that's fair to include, even if it's not necessarily a pure reflection of individual ability.

I'd probably rank them 1) Magic, 2) Chris, 3) Stockton, with 4) Curry after a bit of a gap for right now, but it really depends on what particularly you're valuing. I don't think you can entertain serious conversations about anyone but those three in the discussion, at least using any sort of good faith statistical analysis.

CP should have an MVP too. Were it not for Kobe’s lifetime achievement award.

Deac@Heart said:

cville deac's post reminded me of Maravich. I did not get to see him play very much because his NBA teams were never very good and did not get on television often; the number of NBA and college basketball games on television were very limited at that time. I remember that he could handle the ball with the best of them, but I have never thought of him as a point guard. Again, the distinctions in that era were not clear. I do not believe he was as good defensively as Jerry West, certainly not as good on that end of the floor as Frazier. If he is considered a point guard, he would be a shoot-first point guard, like Curry.

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Yeah, I've probably seen Maravich on youtube as much as I did in the pros as a kid. Maravich would be #1 in style points.

I was looking up some stuff on old 70s basketball a while back. So here's a good trivia question for you - where did Charlie Scott, Dr J and George Gervin begin their pro careers?

Cousy defined the role of PG that this thread is discussing. Six NBA championship rings demand respect. He might not fit todays game, but he is the originator of the position.

Magic and Oscar were the two best players to play the role of PG. They are legitimate GOAT at multiple positions during their careers if they played other positions. #1 and #2 all time, including today.

Curry is #3. He has changed the role of PG with the range and quality of his shot. When the discussion of GOAT point guards comes up with people who have seen everyone including Cousy, Curry is the modern player that changes the discussion. He has all the PG skills but his shooting ability absolutely demands respect, especially with the game on the line.

Everybody else. This isn't meant to demean the players being discussed. They are all outstanding in their own way. This is about the greatest of all time. If I have Magic, Oscar or Steph, I have an advantage head to head over everybody else at #1 that can't be overcome. It's that simple.