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Thread: Ukraine is game to you?

  1. #1

    Ukraine is game to you?



    This does not look good. Russia has effectively surrounded the Ukraine with troops. It feels like it's only a matter of time before a shooting war erupts, and by proxy drags us in via Nato.

    The Biden admin is being tested big time here, and it's a lose-lose situation. Either we hope we can guide them in a diplomatic solution and piss off the hawks, or we engage in a military conflict and piss off everyone else. Failure to back the Ukraine here might be viewed as a green light by China re: Taiwan. Backing them might drive away democrat voters next year.

    So far, we have ordered the withdrawal of embassy staff and families from the Ukraine. The UK followed suit.

    President Biden is weighing committing troops to the Ukraine, or potentially committing assets to NATO to aid in a unified effort.

    NATO made it official that they are committing equipment and troops to the defense of the Ukraine.

    Meanwhile, Russia claims this is just war games and that the US/NATO response is escalating tension, which is complete bullshit.

  2. #2
    I disagree with you
    ImTheCaptain's Avatar
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    boomers determined to ruin everything with their dying breath

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheCaptain View Post
    boomers determined to ruin everything with their dying breath
    The Russian ones in this case.

  4. #4
    Alphonso Smith
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    Russian narratives seem to be typically BS, increasingly so with a longer-ruling Putin. Which explains Trumpís and Trumpís partyís growing affinity.

    Lose-lose situation seems correct.

    Iíve no expertiseÖbut feel like maybe the best thing is to try like hell to discourage the coming invasion and then punishingly isolate Russia maximally afterwards. Donít want or need a freaking expansive warÖ
    I love mankind...itís people I canít stand!!

  5. #5
    If Russia crosses the border into Ukraine, NATO is compelled to respond with force. Once that happens it's just a matter of how many troops and treasure we commit to the cause. I'm not sure how much we can isolate them before that occurs. They have a stranglehold on natural gas resources needed by Europe and can respond that way.

    I think we are fucked in this. Not responding in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea laid a roadmap for them to continue pushing this envelope.

  6. #6
    I disagree with you
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  7. #7

  8. #8
    why did that consulting firm stretch the map of ukraine so much
    semi-aquatic like otters be.

  9. #9
    I disagree with you
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenaciousKory View Post
    why did that consulting firm stretch the map of ukraine so much
    had to copy /paste a map from google images because they couldnt afford to pay Ukraine the rights for a picture of itself

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TenaciousKory View Post
    why did that consulting firm stretch the map of ukraine so much
    LOL. Someone didn't scale both axis when they resized it.

    Twitter has been an interesting follow on this. People in the region have been tweeting all kinds of pictures of tanks, artillery and troop movements in the surrounding areas.

  11. #11
    semi-aquatic like otters be.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TenaciousKory View Post
    As best I can tell only the US and UK withdrew non essential staff and families. I think ours is a reaction to what happened in Afghanistan.

    Also, Germany and by extension the EU is energy dependent on Russia. Their default stance will be diplomacy until either we negotiate a different energy source for them, or the shooting starts.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid Karma View Post
    As best I can tell only the US and UK withdrew non essential staff and families. I think ours is a reaction to what happened in Afghanistan.

    Also, Germany and by extension the EU is energy dependent on Russia. Their default stance will be diplomacy until either we negotiate a different energy source for them, or the shooting starts.
    "what happened"

  14. #14
    The lasting image of shuttling families out of a city overrun by the Taliban has not been lost on me. Find a different nit to pick wormtongue.

  15. #15
    And thatís how you swat away a shit covered fly.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid Karma View Post
    The lasting image of shuttling families out of a city overrun by the Taliban has not been lost on me. Find a different nit to pick wormtongue.
    That's a nice way of saying "Let's hope Biden learned something from his last clusterfuck." We can always hope.

  17. #17
    I literally made the point that our withdrawal of families now is the lesson he learned from that.

    Do you have anything productive to add to the discussion?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid Karma View Post
    I literally made the point that our withdrawal of families now is the lesson he learned from that.

    Do you have anything productive to add to the discussion?
    Sensitive Sally is sensitive.

    I think this is a no-win situation. We have no interest worth defending in Ukraine, other than our credibility to keep our commitments, and that's gone after Afghanistan. This is the start of the heavy price we're going to pay for that failure. More to come.

    Weakness remains provocative.
    Last edited by WokeandBroke; 01-24-2022 at 01:33 PM.

  19. #19
    Alphonso Smith
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    Ukraine is on the border of Russia, has historically been closely connected to Russia, and a vital national interest for the Russians. Save for the border, none of that is true for NATO or the US. Furthermore, it would be more than a little disadvantageous for NATO and the US to try to fight the Russian army in Ukraine.

    So, will Putin invade Ukraine? Probably not.

    So, what's he up to?

    He wants to expose cracks within NATO and dramatize for the Ukrainians that when push comes to shove the US will not protect Ukraine and may cause a mess for Europe's crucially important gas supplies.

    Putin wants NATO and the West to agree with Russia that Ukraine will not be a member of NATO (which Europe does not want anyway). He wants acceptance of Russia's annexation of Crimea and southeastern Ukraine, and he does not want certain threatening weapons in Ukraine or in states bordering Russia.

    He wants a deal now, while Biden is weak and has a demonstrated record of being a consistent foreign policy loser. Maybe the US can be split from the rest of NATO on some issues. He probably can't get everything that he wants but he may be able to get some of it and at the same time expose US and NATO differences and weaknesses. This is a very dangerous game. But Ukraine is a vital interest to Russia, and the US leadership is weak and poor.

  20. #20
    No, just tired of your deliberately evasive attempts to avoid any critical discussion with your typical reductionist bullshit.

    We kept our commitment in Afghanistan for 20 years until Donald Trump decided to initiate a withdrawal without a defined timetable and then the Biden admin crapped the bed on the execution of it.

    I think this really goes back to 2014 far more than anything to do with Afghanistan. The sanctions weren't enough of a future deterrent from the start, and then Trump actually went before the G7 and made a case to excuse Russia's annexation of Crimea, while at the same time extending those same sanctions and working overtly to weaken NATO in the process. 7 years of appeasement from 3 administrations, plus attempting to neuter the regional power check against Russia contributed to Putin knowing he can thumb his nose at the world. And he used that period to leverage Russia's natural gas resources to grab Europe by the balls, which is why they now are stuck on the Neville Chamberlain memorial expressway.

    You can argue we haven't treated Russia harshly enough following 2014 and I will agree with you. Your dogmatic narrowing of blame to Afghanistan as being some canary in the coal mine that we won't "keep our commitments" is lazy at best and intellectually dishonest at worst as a transparent attempt to avoid any critical look inward at the role Republican leadership played in this mess.

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