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MLB HOF Announcement

Bonds certainly distorted the record books. If you are going to cheat don't go over the top.

Ortiz, had the numbers plus super clutch hitting. Not sure if he had to stand on 1st base or in right field all game it would have mattered.

There are two pure FG kickers in Canton, how much of the game did they play?
 
Bonds certainly distorted the record books. If you are going to cheat don't go over the top.

Ortiz, had the numbers plus super clutch hitting. Not sure if he had to stand on 1st base or in right field all game it would have mattered.

There are two pure FG kickers in Canton, how much of the game did they play?

Most high school baseball players would be better right fielders than Ortiz. He would be an absolute liability defensively. He was a roided out fat guy that was the equivalent of a long drive champion being in the PGA hall of fame.

Barry Bonds was 100 times the player Fat Padre was.


Man, I didn't realize how much I dislike Ortiz until typing this out.
 
An interesting scenario: Bonds comes out of retirement and plays in some games for the Giants this season (maybe after roster expansion in September) and has his post retirement clock restart. How many writers heads would explode?
 
An interesting scenario: Bonds comes out of retirement and plays in some games for the Giants this season (maybe after roster expansion in September) and has his post retirement clock restart. How many writers heads would explode?

Would be funny. Last time I saw Bonds he was into bicycling, looked like he weighed about 150 pounds. He looked more like Ichiro.

Bonds was so thoroughly investigated and prosecuted because he absolutely annihilated sacred records as opposed to other roiders like Bagwell or Piazza who were merely good while roiding. The federal government wasn't going to put its full force and weight to track down why some random 36 year-old baseball player hit .285 with 38 bombs.

To this day, his four seasons 2001 through 2004 were the most ridiculously dominant years of any athlete in any sport in my life.

Here was Bonds OBP/SLG/OPS those three years:

2001: .515/.863/1.379
2002: .582/.799/1.381
2003: .529/.749/1.278
2004: .609/.812/1.422

By way of comparison, here are the same stats for the 2021 MVP winners:

Harper: .415/.615/1.044
Ohtani: .372/.592/.965

Bonds was too good for MLB, and as a result, he was brought down when the sport was rife with juicers.
 
LOL. That would be hilarious. Then once he’s back up for the HOF, the angry boomer voters will be replaced by Gen Xers who grew up watching him play.
 
Lost in the PED talk: Edgar Martinez took until his last attempt to get in because people dinged him for being a DH. Three years later, Ortiz, primarily a DH, gets in on his first try. They have similar career OPSs. Not saying the voters should have punished Ortiz for their previous reluctance on Edgar, but it's still a crazy shift.

Well, Ortiz had over 200 homers and 500 RBIs more than Martinez, plus much more success in the post season (which is and definitely should be taken into account). So it doesn't seem like much of a shift to me.

The steroid stuff, though, is inconsistent.
 
Well, Ortiz had over 200 homers and 500 RBIs more than Martinez, plus much more success in the post season (which is and definitely should be taken into account). So it doesn't seem like much of a shift to me.

The steroid stuff, though, is inconsistent.

Don’t mind the 1,419 extra plate appearances Ortiz had. Or the lesser career wRC+ and WAR.
 
Postseason definitely matters to HOF and Ortiz was a huge part of 3 different world series champions and had some legendary postseason heroics. His three World Series OPS were 1.086, .945, and 1.948. That is just insane numbers at the highest stage possible. Of course he got in, dude is one of the best hitters ever. The DH argument is kind of silly when starting pitchers who play in 20% of their team's games if they stay healthy and don't contribute at all at the plate can make the HOF with no arguments.
 
Would never argue Ortiz doesn't belong, he does.
Taint this year is he was a PED user and other PED users equally deserving, didn't get in.
 
Wow, it seems like people have really warmed up to one of the biggest assholes on the planet over the past 15 years.
 
The DH argument is kind of silly when starting pitchers who play in 20% of their team's games if they stay healthy and don't contribute at all at the plate can make the HOF with no arguments.

This is just goofy comparing the impact a DH has to a starting pitcher.
 
Would never argue Ortiz doesn't belong, he does.
Taint this year is he was a PED user and other PED users equally deserving, didn't get in.

The other PEDs users were more deserving.
 
Well Ortiz ended 80 years of frustration what did Clemons do in Boston? Brought a team back from 0-3 for only time in MLB history.

Bonds never won a World Series whereas Ortiz was integral to the Red Sox winning 3.

Ortiz not in Boston no World Series wins.
 
This is just goofy comparing the impact a DH has to a starting pitcher.

No, what is goofy is the argument that a DH doesn't impact a game. My point is that a starting pitcher who is considered a workhorse and pitches 250 innings only plays about 17% of the innings that a team plays(plus they are usually complete and total liabilities when they bat) and everybody agrees that a Starting pitcher is indispensable and a HOF lock if they hit certain career numbers. Why don't people think that Ortiz or Edgar Martinez belong in the HOF when they completely dominate one of the most important parts of baseball which is of course, hitting.

Here is a fun fact btw, Ortiz played 2,162 innings in the field during his career and made 22 errors with a .990 fielding percentage which is actually not half bad. There are 6 pitchers in the HOF who pitched less than 2,162 innings ( 5 of those are relief pitchers, and dizzy dean was a SP).
 
Of course how much does any individual played actually play. Pitcher strikes out the side? 7 guys doing nothing. Batting? 4-6 guys do nothing.

Pitchers and catches are effectively in on every play in the field. Catchers would have the highest level since they are important to every pitch.
 
No, what is goofy is the argument that a DH doesn't impact a game. My point is that a starting pitcher who is considered a workhorse and pitches 250 innings only plays about 17% of the innings that a team plays(plus they are usually complete and total liabilities when they bat) and everybody agrees that a Starting pitcher is indispensable and a HOF lock if they hit certain career numbers. Why don't people think that Ortiz or Edgar Martinez belong in the HOF when they completely dominate one of the most important parts of baseball which is of course, hitting.

Here is a fun fact btw, Ortiz played 2,162 innings in the field during his career and made 22 errors with a .990 fielding percentage which is actually not half bad. There are 6 pitchers in the HOF who pitched less than 2,162 innings ( 5 of those are relief pitchers, and dizzy dean was a SP).

This is so bad on so many levels. Are we really citing fielding percentage as a viable defensive metric in 2022? Also comparing innings pitched of a pitcher vs a innings played for a non-pitcher makes no sense. There are numerous metrics you could cite to compare values of position players vs pitchers - saying pitchers only play 1/5 games and therefore aren’t as valuable is silly.

Ortiz has a good case for the hall of fame. It’s not as good as a case as Edgar Martinez, IMO, and both were primary DH’s, so I think it’s fair to ask why Ortiz gets in on first ballot and Edgar on 10th. I also agree it’s hypocritical to vote in Ortiz and not Bonds/Clemens/A-Rod, who were far superior players and also PED tainted. With that said, I would put in Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Ortiz (and would have voted for Edgar) if I had a vote.
 
This is so bad on so many levels. Are we really citing fielding percentage as a viable defensive metric in 2022? Also comparing innings pitched of a pitcher vs a innings played for a non-pitcher makes no sense. There are numerous metrics you could cite to compare values of position players vs pitchers - saying pitchers only play 1/5 games and therefore aren’t as valuable is silly.

Ortiz has a good case for the hall of fame. It’s not as good as a case as Edgar Martinez, IMO, and both were primary DH’s, so I think it’s fair to ask why Ortiz gets in on first ballot and Edgar on 10th. I also agree it’s hypocritical to vote in Ortiz and not Bonds/Clemens/A-Rod, who were far superior players and also PED tainted. With that said, I would put in Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Ortiz (and would have voted for Edgar) if I had a vote.

The HOF is a museum of baseball history. Who is more important to baseball? In 50 years are you gonna be like man that Edgar Martinez was a professional hitter and you know what his defense was passable for a while. Or is it Ortiz who is a hero for 3 WS teams? It’s the hall of fame not the hall of WAR.

The steroid shit is stupid. Manfred said well there were lots of false positives, and sorta absolved Ortiz, but all these guys should be in. We look the other way on certain guys basically because they didn’t fail a test or break a meaningful record (pudge/piazza) but it’s an issue for the elite guys.
 
Lighten up Francis- I just thought it was interesting that Ortiz played over 2,000 innings in the field when most on this thread seem to think he was some kind of butcher that couldn't be trusted with a glove. He obviously didn't have the range of Keith Hernandez but yeah a fielding percentage of .990 for his career shows you that a manager could put him at first base and not have to worry about him losing the game because of errors. He also obviously benefited from Martinez getting in earlier as a DH but his numbers and postseason success most likely would have gotten him in as the first DH if there had been no martinez.
 
This is so bad on so many levels. Are we really citing fielding percentage as a viable defensive metric in 2022? Also comparing innings pitched of a pitcher vs a innings played for a non-pitcher makes no sense. There are numerous metrics you could cite to compare values of position players vs pitchers - saying pitchers only play 1/5 games and therefore aren’t as valuable is silly.

Ortiz has a good case for the hall of fame. It’s not as good as a case as Edgar Martinez, IMO, and both were primary DH’s, so I think it’s fair to ask why Ortiz gets in on first ballot and Edgar on 10th. I also agree it’s hypocritical to vote in Ortiz and not Bonds/Clemens/A-Rod, who were far superior players and also PED tainted. With that said, I would put in Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Ortiz (and would have voted for Edgar) if I had a vote.

Your point about Edgar Martinez was spot on. He was as feared as an effective a DH as Ortiz and deserving of a first ballot, though his numbers are far from Ortiz’s. But unlike Ortiz, Martinez played in a small market city and was no where the personality Ortiz was. And unfortunately with today’s bb politics, that goes a long way.
 
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