Conference Expansion: Stanford, California and SMU Join the ACC

[d23acs]

What is the goal of a university? Profit optimization? Media exposure?

I'm not sure what their goal is. My guess is profit optimization. If I was looking at the university, my two focuses would be on bringing our academic reputation (and/or rankings that play a large role in that reputation) back to the level most believe it should be at, along with ensuring Wake remains at the table in sports at a "high major" level. This is not necessarily relevant to this debate, although I would think pretty relevant to the actual decision makers, and feel free to disagree, but to me sports is one of the main drivers of Wake's current (somewhat) national reputation. Certainly as someone who probably had better pure academic collegiate options, ACC sports was one of the reasons I chose Wake over similar schools without competitive sports. Not to say that is common, I'm probably one of the only dummies who would take that into account, but it is easily visible that athletic success can drive applicants to a school (UConn received ~10,000 more applications this year after a CBB national championship). I also believe the criteria to be elite in academics and education have changed pretty drastically, pretty quickly, arguably even more visibly on the academic side given the quick fall from ~30 to ~50 in the US News ranking. Maybe Wente is the right person for the job, I don't personally know her, but I always felt that any correspondence I/we got from her as students was always very fluffy, without much substance. I think there are many people outside academia with more experience in facilitating and leading the transformational change in organizations that the university currently needs across all fronts, not just sports.

 

[spritethr]

Well, yeah, Wente is interested in honoring Wellman and:

We will use a process that is different from any Wake Forest has used in the past. Instead of engaging in strategic planning – which can too easily turn into generating lists of things to do — we will focus on framing a strategy to accomplish our vision and goals together. We must determine the right things to do, and not do, in order to deliver on our mission while navigating complex and challenging times.

I like doing things, acting and accomplishing things (making the NCAAT).

Wente is committed to framing a strategy (a path?) and navigating. And then eventually, we do things?

This is just a bunch of nothingspeak. Strategic planning and framing a strategy are quite literally the same thing??

 

[LilburnDeac]

The exit fee isn't really that massive, first of all. It is what, like $130M, or $150M - I don't remember the exact number. That is likely in line with what the exit would cost the conference. It is completely reasonable.
Second, someone filing suit doesn't really indicate anything about the actual strength of their case. People file BS cases all the time for all kinds of reasons - in this case perceived leverage would be the main reason.

I think Clemson's case has a bit more merit than FSU's because it at least raises some interesting issues that depend on what is in the ESPN agreement and whether that agreement continues. FSU's case, as I understand it, appears dead in the water from a legal argument standpoint.

I don't think that the exit fee is nearly as big an issue as the loss of money from the media rights, which would stay with the ACC to 2036 even if the schools leave

 

[DeacDaddy]

This is just a bunch of nothingspeak. Strategic planning and framing a strategy are quite literally the same thing??

Not at all the same thing. It's completely clear that her out-of-the-box, envelope-pushing, blue-sky thinking new tactic will be an effective way of capitalizing on core competencies, catalyzing expansion initiatives, shifting bandwidth paradigms, leveraging necessary deliverables, and delivering necessary leverages, for the purpose of ok yeah you're right it's the same thing

 

[Buttermaker]

Currie: "Clemson Files Lawsuit; Wake Forest Remains Committed to Core Values

As a charter member of the Atlantic Coast Conference, Wake Forest has a 71-year history of committed stewardship of our league, unmatched academic integrity, and athletic achievements including 10 NCAA team championships, 56 ACC team championships and a recent streak of seven-straight bowl appearances from 2016-22.

While today’s news of Clemson’s lawsuit against the league is disappointing, we remain proudly focused on enhancing Wake Forest’s position amongst the highest level of intercollegiate athletics competition in the country.

We are grateful for Wake Forest President Susan R. Wente and her leadership as ACC Board of Directors Vice-Chair alongside University of Virginia President and Chair James E. Ryan and Commissioner Jim Phillips and proud of our longstanding partnership with ESPN and the ACC Network.

With our 2.7 million fans representing the fastest growing fanbase in the Power 4, elite athletics facilities, the largest corporate partnerships in our history and our dynamic home market of 1.3 million residents in the heart of North Carolina, Wake Forest is uncompromised on our commitment to compete at the highest level of intercollegiate athletics."

Well, as long as Currie and Wente "remain proudly focused on enhancing Wake Forest’s position amongst the highest level of intercollegiate athletics competition in the country, " I'm not worried. Also, love the fastest growing fanbase line again. Wonder if he applied for a trademark.

 

[saltydeac]

Yep. Think Wake's reliance on Academics running the university is not a good choice. They come up with some BS statements that hypothetically make them sound good while in reality doing nothing to help anybody.

I tend to think 2&2 is right that in this current unstable time when you never know when the rug will be pulled out from under you, a school like Wake needs to have an incredibly short leash on coaches. You never know when the music might stop, and I think the success of our football and basketball program at that time will be paramount in us falling somewhere within: a) somehow finding our way into one of the remaining "power conference(s)" b) forming some lesser, but still competitive league with the likes of Duke, VT, GT, etc. c) Playing the likes of JMU, App, Richmond, Davidson in conference every year. Sadly, with our current product, it's hard to imagine anything other than option C.

completely agree why Wake has really shot itself in the foot with bball program as so short-sighted to keep horrible coaches for 4-5 years vs. 2-3 years they should get without making NCAAs. SEC schools get it and why they will quickly fire bad performances after just a couple of years no matter the cost of a contract as it is small compared to the value of the brand and reputation for its product on the field and court and the amount of money schools make for successful programs. Unfortunately a small school like WF is the one that could least afford to wade in the mire of irrelevancy for bball (and thankfully fball has done relatively well), but we really need to have 2 shining major sports to even remotely make us attractive to other major schools and guessing baseball is a distant third when conferences are looking at potential new members. I personally think you can be committed to academics while doing it right athletically, but if you are going to be one of the few to truly be committed to a student athlete then you have to have succesful coaches and there are way too many other coaches turning around abysmal programs in 1-2 years with the right approach and schemes/system.

 

[PhDeac]

This is just a bunch of nothingspeak. Strategic planning and framing a strategy are quite literally the same thing??

Yeah. It looks like it’s from the business buzzwords thread written by a lawyer or business bro rather than a biochemist.

Even a university like Wake brings in more revenue from research in areas like biochem than from sports and branding. That’s certainly the case at larger universities. That’s one reason academics are in charge.

 

[BubbaJean]

I seriously thought someone copied and pasted that from the "Good business expressions" thread on The Pit.

 

[scooter84]

I don't think that the exit fee is nearly as big an issue as the loss of money from the media rights, which would stay with the ACC to 2036 even if the schools leave

Right. I just want to help people stay accurate with their words. Clemson and FSU keep conflating the two issues and trying to portray the situation as a "$500M+ exit fee" - which sounds exorbitant. But that is not the situation. The fee is $100M+ and then they are looking at losing several hundred million dollars of potential media rights income going forward, through 2036. Those are two different things.

And, Clemson's argument goes to whether the GOR clause really should survive after a school leaves the conference - and that question depends on the exact interpretation of the GOR language, along with the contents of the ACC-ESPN agreement, which is not public. I don't know whether Clemson has also raised issues around the exit fee - not that I know of.

 

[donaldross]

What is the goal of a university? Profit optimization? Media exposure?

You have hit the nail on the head with this question. Our alums over the last 20 years overwhelming have chosen to be a small class size, undergraduate focused, regional college. We believe we do those things better than others and, as a result, our graduates will go on to high middle class lives with a focus on helping humanity.

We have chosen that over athletics or US News Rankings. We are no longer striving to be at the top of the US News Rankings nor one at the top of Intercollegiate Athletics. Our Undergraduate experience is wonderful. And we love having great side programs like debate, golf, and tennis.

If you want to attend a University ranked in the top 20 nationally with big time college athletics, we are no longer that place. That was our choice. This doesn't make us bad people. It just makes us Davidson.

 

[Tobacco Road]

Right. I just want to help people stay accurate with their words. Clemson and FSU keep conflating the two issues and trying to portray the situation as a "$500M+ exit fee" - which sounds exorbitant. But that is not the situation. The fee is $100M+ and then they are looking at losing several hundred million dollars of potential media rights income going forward, through 2036. Those are two different things.

And, Clemson's argument goes to whether the GOR clause really should survive after a school leaves the conference - and that question depends on the exact interpretation of the GOR language, along with the contents of the ACC-ESPN agreement, which is not public. I don't know whether Clemson has also raised issues around the exit fee - not that I know of.

The primary purpose of the GOR is for dictating who gets the money if/when a school leaves the conference. That is obviously the intent, so I would think the language of the contracts would have to be egregiously bad for that to not hold up (Not a lawyer).

 

[Kent]

If you want to attend a University ranked in the top 20 nationally with big time college athletics, we are no longer that place. That was our choice. This doesn't make us bad people. It just makes us Davidson.

Say what you will about the Joel (my personal belief is that the venue is not the problem with WFU basketball), but it's hard to argue with this statement. I'm just not sure why a parent would pay a gazillion dollars to send their kid to Wake, given our decline in academic ranking and athletics. Hopefully there's a strategy in play that is not apparent to me.

But from afar it looks like a scary time for WFU. The thing I hold onto is that Currie seems like a smart dude, who probably has a plan of some sort. But being really (and demonstrably; not just because we say so) good in academics and sports right now would give him more tools to work with.

 

[LilburnDeac]

Right. I just want to help people stay accurate with their words. Clemson and FSU keep conflating the two issues and trying to portray the situation as a "$500M+ exit fee" - which sounds exorbitant. But that is not the situation. The fee is $100M+ and then they are looking at losing several hundred million dollars of potential media rights income going forward, through 2036. Those are two different things.

And, Clemson's argument goes to whether the GOR clause really should survive after a school leaves the conference - and that question depends on the exact interpretation of the GOR language, along with the contents of the ACC-ESPN agreement, which is not public. I don't know whether Clemson has also raised issues around the exit fee - not that I know of.

Isn't the purpose of the GOR to ensure that the media rights stay with the ACC as a deterrent for a school to leave?

 

[Deaconblue]

The primary purpose of the GOR is for dictating who gets the money if/when a school leaves the conference. That is obviously the intent, so I would think the language of the contracts would have to be egregiously bad for that to not hold up (Not a lawyer).

This is actually a consequence of signing the contract.

The concept is that payment for the combined media rights for all the schools is greater than the sum of the payments that individual schools could get for the same rights. There is synergy because of the aggregation of the rights.

 

[wakelaw13]

We are 9 months removed from the College World Series and 3 years removed from the ACC Championship Game and we've had prominent alumni making $5MM+ gifts to basketball but we're no longer a place with big time college athletics? Interesting.

Unlike just about every other Power 5 (or 6, or 4) Program, Wake Forest is neither a giant private research institution nor a large state university with a huge built-in fanbase. We have great academics focused on actually teaching the students. We punch above our weight in athletics. I liked that profile and I'm proud to have a degree from Wake Forest. I don't need it to be more like Duke or more like UNC.

 

[Say Hey Deac]

Genuinely curious (a) what strategies you all think exist to keep Wake from getting left out of a 2-super-league NCAA and (b) what strategies you’d expect the Wake President to publicly reveal.

 

[Pilchard]

We are 9 months removed from the College World Series and 3 years removed from the ACC Championship Game and we've had prominent alumni making $5MM+ gifts to basketball but we're no longer a place with big time college athletics? Interesting.

Unlike just about every other Power 5 (or 6, or 4) Program, Wake Forest is neither a giant private research institution nor a large state university with a huge built-in fanbase. We have great academics focused on actually teaching the students. We punch above our weight in athletics. I liked that profile and I'm proud to have a degree from Wake Forest. I don't need it to be more like Duke or more like UNC.

Yes. Decline in athletics? Man, Mitch Griffis did more damage to WF than I ever imagined. Recency bias here is overwhelming.

 

[inspectah_]

Wake's academic reputation hasn't declined. Wake's ranking in US News' Best Colleges Guide declined because of an arbitrary change to the ranking formula as determined by a couple of people in the editorial offices. You can argue that it's one and the same but I disagree. While I think Wake should do what it reasonably can to regain some ground given how (stupidly) important those rankings have become, the drop in ranking is not Wake's fault.

 

[Pilchard]

Genuinely curious (a) what strategies you all think exist to keep Wake from getting left out of a 2-super-league NCAA and (b) what strategies you’d expect the Wake President to publicly reveal.

Of course. Wente, Currie and every other WF administrator know the importance of the realignment issues. Just as FSU and Clemson are secretly collaborating with others about their future, WF leaders are doing the same. Wente and Currie aren't going to map out their strategies to protect WF's interests, just like every other school keeps their contingency plans confidential, except for possibly FSU because they are led by idiots. Understand the argument, if its WF made bad choices to select its leaders, but no leader is going to go public with their strategies moving forward.

 

[scooter84]

The primary purpose of the GOR is for dictating who gets the money if/when a school leaves the conference. That is obviously the intent, so I would think the language of the contracts would have to be egregiously bad for that to not hold up (Not a lawyer).

Very true - the language in the agreement justifies the grant of rights as necessary for the ACC to comply with the ESPN agreement. It looks like the question will be whether the ESPN agreement really requires the grant.