• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

2017 NBA Draft thread - JC drafted 19th to Atlanta, OUR... Hawks?

JuiceCrewAllStar said:
you may be right, vad, but you go hard for all things Euro to the point where I can't take your word for it
Click to expand...

Hah, fair point :eek:

I do think CBB fans really do not understand the level of the top European squads now in basketball, just because they never see it on TV. And what Doncic is doing at his age is frankly unprecedented. He basically has broken the WARP projection system because there is nothing to account for an 18-19 year old in ACB doing what he is doing (for example - Paul Gasol averaged 12/6 as a 20 year old in ACB before being the #3 overall NBA draft pick and he was considered a freak prodigy and that 15 years ago when Spanish basketball was just starting to be high level).

Playing as a kid against grown ass men day in and day out, going on relentless road trips, playing back-to-backs and 3 in 5 nights and living through the grind of a top level professional season is really, really hard. To do that and be your teams best player is crazy.
 
vadimivich said:
Hah, fair point :eek:

I do think CBB fans really do not understand the level of the top European squads now in basketball, just because they never see it on TV. And what Doncic is doing at his age is frankly unprecedented. He basically has broken the WARP projection system because there is nothing to account for an 18-19 year old in ACB doing what he is doing (for example - Paul Gasol averaged 12/6 as a 20 year old in ACB before being the #3 overall NBA draft pick and he was considered a freak prodigy and that 15 years ago when Spanish basketball was just starting to be high level).

Playing as a kid against grown ass men day in and day out, going on relentless road trips, playing back-to-backs and 3 in 5 nights and living through the grind of a top level professional season is really, really hard. To do that and be your teams best player is crazy.
Click to expand...

No, I think CBB fans generally dismiss Euro squads because of what they put into the NBA. Yes you have great players like Dirk and Giannis (I assume he played in some Euro league) come along every once in a while, but CBB still produces a significantly higher number of quality players. The average Euro player that comes to the NBA isn't Dirk or Giannis, he is still a a goon center or pussy 3-point specialist. Now, the average CBB player that comes to the NBA isn't Dirk or Giannis either, but the majority of the better NBA players are still coming from CBB. Euro leagues are much more respected than they were 10-15 years ago and are clearly starting to produce better talent, but to act like they are superior to CBB in producing long-term NBA talent is a little ludicrous, regardless of how more difficult the training and travel schedule is.
 
So let me get this straight. People are arguing that a league of 18-22 year olds in which maybe two dozen players a year have meaningful pro careers is superior to pro leagues of grown ass men that most of those 18-22 year olds are never good enough to play in.

To make this discussion relevant to the thread, what should the Hawks do with Schroder if they pick Luka? I'm not sure how much value Schroder is. He's a solid PG in a league with a lot of very good PGs. Looks like Luka could play the SG or SF in some lineups.
 
PH,

First, I was poking fun at using Ryan Kelly as an example. I expected him to be averaging 3 pts per game in Spain, much like he did for the Lakers and Hawks as a scrub. I was surprised to see him an elite player for his team.

Two, using all of CBB was not the argument - using ACC hoops as a subset of CBB was the argument. I could argue, if I wanted that the top 8 teams in the ACC have better #1 - #3 options than almost every Spanish div1 team with a few exceptions - players on their way to the NBA. That is because on those top 8 ACC teams, the top 3 guys are going to the NBA to be key rotation players. Some teams have less, some teams have more, but there are roughly 25ish future NBA players at any given time on scholly at an ACC school. There are a lot less than that in Spain.

Then, on each ACC squad, the next 3 guys are probably playing pro in Europe somewhere - Spanish level or just below. Then, the bottom falls out on bottom tier ACC teams and late rotation guys in the top of the ACC. That means that roughly speaking on any given Spanish team, players 6-13 are waaaay better than 6-13 on any ACC roster. Does that mean the 30 year old Spanish center who could never sniff the NBA could bull his way through an ACC schedule against kids? It does, but as far as talent, the two leagues on first and second blush are comparable. Put it this way, Duke and Carolina and even UVa would stay on the court relatively comfortably. Wake not so much.
 
25ish future NBA players? What are we counting as NBA players? Just roster guys or meaningful career guys?
 
PhDeac said:
25ish future NBA players? What are we counting as NBA players? Just roster guys or meaningful career guys?
Click to expand...

That’s what I was wondering.

2&2’s post is spectacularly dumb for somebody I know watches NBA basketball.
 
jaybone said:
PH,

First, I was poking fun at using Ryan Kelly as an example. I expected him to be averaging 3 pts per game in Spain, much like he did for the Lakers and Hawks as a scrub. I was surprised to see him an elite player for his team.

Two, using all of CBB was not the argument - using ACC hoops as a subset of CBB was the argument. I could argue, if I wanted that the top 8 teams in the ACC have better #1 - #3 options than almost every Spanish div1 team with a few exceptions - players on their way to the NBA. That is because on those top 8 ACC teams, the top 3 guys are going to the NBA to be key rotation players. Some teams have less, some teams have more, but there are roughly 25ish future NBA players at any given time on scholly at an ACC school. There are a lot less than that in Spain.

Then, on each ACC squad, the next 3 guys are probably playing pro in Europe somewhere - Spanish level or just below. Then, the bottom falls out on bottom tier ACC teams and late rotation guys in the top of the ACC. That means that roughly speaking on any given Spanish team, players 6-13 are waaaay better than 6-13 on any ACC roster. Does that mean the 30 year old Spanish center who could never sniff the NBA could bull his way through an ACC schedule against kids? It does, but as far as talent, the two leagues on first and second blush are comparable. Put it this way, Duke and Carolina and even UVa would stay on the court relatively comfortably. Wake not so much.
Click to expand...

The #1 - #3 options may turn out to be better players in the long run ... but 18 year old Brandon Ingram is not the same thing as what he will be at 25. At 18 he would have been stuffed into a box in Spain by a 30 year old man opposing him. Saying Duke / UNC or UVa would compete in a league like the ACB is sort of like saying the Atlanta Celtics AAU team when they had Dwight Howard, Josh Smith and Javaris Crittenton would have competed in the ACC (and that is more realistic than UNC competing against Real Madrid). They would have been bodied, because they were 16-17 years olds facing 21 year olds.

Even HOF talent level 18-19 year olds do not do very well in actual men's professional leagues. Pau Gasol when he was 19 averaged 4/3 in 15mpg. Marc Gasol at the same age was 5/4 in 16mpg. Manu Ginobili did not play in the top division of European basketball until he was 22. Unless you think that there are 3 players on every top ACC team who are better at their age level than guys like the Gasols, Ginobili, etc ... then ACC teams would get annihilated by actual men's professional teams, even if their potential talent down the road is substantially lower.

That's what makes Doncic so crazy. He is a kid dominating grown men in a way that really nobody has done.
 
Last edited:
Strickland33 said:
That’s what I was wondering.

2&2’s post is spectacularly dumb for somebody I know watches NBA basketball.
Click to expand...

Watching and understanding are 2 totally different things. My 8 year old watches NBA basketball with me sometimes. Doesn't mean he understands much more than "dunks are cool!"
 
vadimivich said:
That's what makes Doncic so crazy. He is a kid dominating grown men in a way that really nobody has done.
Click to expand...

xxx_nba_rookie_game_008_2365399-e1430751786458-1-e1474397776785.jpg
 
jaybone said:
Dude, your Ryan Kelly example is NOT doing you any favors. He is averaging 14.5 pts per game in the top Spanish league but never averaged more than 12 per game in the ACC (and that was 4 years in). His minutes comparison are dead equal. I am not saying the Spanish league sucks or lacks the talent of the ACC - I am just saying that using your example, the Spanish league is actually EXACTLY comparable to the ACC, possibly a tick less talented.

We are all going to have to wait and see. This time last year, I am sure I could have been goaded into how much a tweener Donovan Mitchell was going to be. Afterall, he came to Winston his senior year and laid a fucking a egg against us.

My takeaway actually is that in this draft, if you have the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd pick, you are going to spluge in your shorts. You are guarnteed a can't miss pick who could develop into an NBA top 15 player
Click to expand...

Donovan Mitchell was a sophomore last year when we beat him.
 
A bit of hyperbole on my part. I looked at 2013-14 ACC as I wanted to capture every kid including freshman, who could have made the NBA after a 4-year college career (e.g., Brogdan), and only found 13 NBA players on the rosters, half fringe players. I feel like 2013-14 was a bit of an outlier in that there were no future NBA star in the conference (we still sucked). UVa had the best roster with Brogdan, Joe Harris, and Justin Anderson. The best player in the conference was Jabari Parker, I think.

Still, not the ACC of 1985 with something like 10 future NBA all-stars.

And of course I get the whole 25 year old Michael Jordan is going to crush 19 year old Michael Jordan like a bug - I'm just trying to find some logical space in the middle. I still think a kid that comes into the ACC, last year's ACC specifically and dominates with a 21/11 stat line is going to #succeed at the next level. I also get the logic, including the math logic using the Gasols as examples as to why Doncic should succeed as well. Doncic is a phenom stat-wise, but so is Bagley. No many kids come into the ACC and pull a 20/10 year 1. Anthony Davis did it at Kentucky, Melo and KD did it at Syracuse and Texas, and I think Wayman Tisdale at Oklahoma and that is it. To put it in context, Blake Griffin averaged 15/9 and people were losing their minds. I am not sure why Bagley is taken for granted already.

So far as I know, no frosh has ever done this in the ACC.
 
Jabari averaged 19/9 at Duke as a freshman in a tough ACC and he's trash. I can at least make a case as to why Bagley would miss in the modern NBA:

Not a sure thing he develops into a defensive anchor. 0 shot blocks in the 4 NCAA tournament games in 36 mpg is weird. If he plays the 4 in the NBA he needs to make 3s. Only shot 62.7% on FTs on super high volume at Duke.

I think he's a really good prospect and will probably learn to make 3s and he is a good rebounder. But he's not a Doncic level lock for me.
 
FckVwls said:
Jabari averaged 19/9 at Duke as a freshman in a tough ACC and he's trash. I can at least make a case as to why Bagley would miss in the modern NBA:

Not a sure thing he develops into a defensive anchor. 0 shot blocks in the 4 NCAA tournament games in 36 mpg is weird. If he plays the 4 in the NBA he needs to make 3s. Only shot 62.7% on FTs on super high volume at Duke.

I think he's a really good prospect and will probably learn to make 3s and he is a good rebounder. But he's not a Doncic level lock for me.
Click to expand...

First, Parker is not trash, he's had two ACL blowouts. That is going to hinder the development of every human being on earth.

Second, in hindsight, it was not a tough ACC comparatively. But I do hear you. My easiest comparison is Tony Parker, who was head scratcher 1st round pick at the time because he averaged paltry numbers in the french pro league before he was drafted (as an 18-year old)
 
Part of vad's point is all the successful Euros had paltry numbers overseas. That's why Luka's numbers stand out.
 
Yeah my point is just because a player puts up 20/10 in the ACC as a 18-19 year old doesn't mean they are going to hit. The quality of play in college basketball is low enough that players can be super productive with skills that don't translate to the modern NBA.
 
FckVwls said:
Yeah my point is just because a player puts up 20/10 in the ACC as a 18-19 year old doesn't mean they are going to hit. The quality of play in college basketball is low enough that players can be super productive with skills that don't translate to the modern NBA.
Click to expand...

No offense, but this is a stupid argument. There are not enough first year players to hit 20/10 for there to be large data to pull from, that is how unusual it is.

Taking your argument one step further, just flip it and make the same argument for Euros (i.e., lots of NBA success happens for players with bad stats in college and Euro). This argument essentially should then be reworked to just state, college and Euro numbers have no bearing on NBA success. Michael Jordan averaged under 20 pts all 3 years at Carolina. Yada yada yada

The only power 5 college basketball player to explode frosh year and NOT hit big in the NBA is Tyler Hansbrough. Parker has been slowed by injuries. Okafor did not produce at Bagley numbers.

Add to that, Bagley has unusual measurables a la Giannis, a la Paul George - guys who are freakish athletes with freakishly unusual body types that could translate into infinite matchup issues for everyone. Think Kevin Durant when you make this argument (who incidentally IS one of the few 20/10 frosh to compare Bagley to).

You guys aren't going to sway me. Ryan Kelly averaged 15 pts a game in this league. I feel like RJ could average 6. This will shake out and we can revisit in a year and see who reads stupid in hindsight (at least for this argument) and who reads guru). I got the #2 pick and I am Phoenix, I take Bagley in a heartbeat because I think my current bigs suck and I can get a quality PG in a trade or as a FA.
 
Last edited:
jaybone said:
No offense, but this is a stupid argument. There are not enough first year players to hit 20/10 for there to be large data to pull from, that is how unusual it is.

Taking your argument one step further, just flip it and make the same argument for Euros (i.e., lots of NBA success happens for players with bad stats in college and Euro). This argument essentially should then be reworked to just state, college and Euro numbers have no bearing on NBA success. Michael Jordan averaged under 20 pts all 3 years at Carolina. Yada yada yada

The only power 5 college basketball player to explode frosh year and NOT hit big in the NBA is Tyler Hansbrough. Parker has been slowed by injuries. Okafor did not produce at Bagley numbers.

Add to that, Bagley has unusual measurables a la Giannis, a la Paul George - guys who are freakish athletes with freakishly unusual body types that could translate into infinite matchup issues for everyone. Think Kevin Durant when you make this argument (who incidentally IS one of the few 20/10 frosh to compare Bagley to).

You guys aren't going to sway me. Ryan Kelly averaged 15 pts a game in this league. I feel like RJ could average 6. This will shake out and we can revisit in a year and see who reads stupid in hindsight (at least for this argument) and who reads guru). I got the #2 pick and I am Phoenix, I take Bagley in a heartbeat because I think my current bigs suck and I can get a quality PG in a trade or as a FA.
Click to expand...


This is going to be a really bad take in 1 years time. Comparing Bagley to Greak Freak or KD athletically is LoL
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top