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CMM

Crawford will not be as good as a healty senior CMM next year and I think most Wake fans seriously underrate Devin - he's an absolute beast inside. If CMM never gets back to full strength/speed then you could potentially make an argument that we will be better next year but Devin is going to be a serious loss.
 
Crawford and Collins have an NBA ceiling that CMM and Devin don't really have. Just a matter of how fast they can get to that ceiling.
 
PhDeac said:
Crawford and Collins have an NBA ceiling that CMM and Devin don't really have. Just a matter of how fast they can get to that ceiling.
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Right. Call it the Shareef Abdur-Rahim effect. Someone has to score points and grab rebounds on bad teams - when you're a fan of that team you will almost always overvalue those performances. CMM and Devin are Deacs and they've put up with all kinds of shit so they deserve all the support our fans can give them. At the same time neither have a true position and both have huge gaps in their skill sets. Devin has an unreal motor, but he has the size of a 4 but can't shoot outside 4 feet or hit free throws. Codi is an elite finisher but doesn't quite have the handle of a point guard and doesn't shoot well enough to be a 2 guard.

As a freshman, Crawford's played through a dislocated finger to put up arguably better numbers so far than Codi did as a junior. 13-15 points per game, 3-5 boards, 4-5 assists - but he can shoot from outside and he hits free throws. Collins is getting only slightly more than half of the minutes Devin gets but he's still putting up 10 points and 5 boards. Last year Devin averaged 12/9 - I bet freshman John Collins could have put up 12/9 on last year's Wake team if he got almost 30 minutes a night.

This is a lot like the CJ Harris "we're absolutely going to be far worse next year, he can't be replaced" argument - except we have better replacements lined up and a deeper bench for support.

It's absolutely a question of how fast they get to a performance level close to CMM and Devin, and based on how rapidly they've improved in just a handful of games so far I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they get there as sophomores and surpass them as juniors/seniors. I still lean NIT this year and NCAA's next year. We'll need serviceable minutes from Moore or SJM, but one would hope that's the whole idea of having one of the best big man coaches in the country.
 
Collins averages almost two times more fouls per 40 minutes than Devin does. He can't play 30 minutes a game.

Again, Devin is underrated even by our own fan base.
 
Considering he has 4 fouls in his last 35 minutes, the statement "he can't play 30 minutes a game" might not be true any more. Players improve and adjust. Especially freshmen.

Promoting Collins is not the same thing as underrating Devin. Is your argument that the fan base has just recently started underrating Devin or that putting up 12 and 9 for a Wake team that missed the postseason entirely last year makes him seem underrated because he's better than his numbers?

Who is he better than? Anthony Gill? Brice Johnson? Zach Auguste? Jefferson?

Somewhere GaTech fans are probably having the same argument about how awesome Charles Mitchell is. I don't really know who would argue that Devin isn't having a great senior year so far or that he isn't an excellent ACC big man, but I don't really get the argument that he's elite either, which you seem to be demanding. The reality is Devin can be dominant but he's also been inconsistent. In our last 10 games last year he scored single digits in 6 of them. Put up zero against Duke and scored 5 total points in the 2 UVA games combined (and we still almost won the first UVA game).

What level of appreciation are you demanding for Devin Thomas?
 
I don't have an exact level that I'm "demanding" I just don't think he's easily replaced by one player - particularly anyone on our roster in the next year or so and I rate Collins VERY highly. Collins has a higher ceiling as someone said earlier, and is likely better suited for NBA play due to his size and not being a tweener. You're probably right about the Mitchell point.
 
Next year could be a tougher year than people think. We will be more talented, but we are going to be relying A LOT on sophomores and freshmen. I know people don't want to constantly hear excuses about age, but that's what happens when you have two of three scholarship classes completely disappear. I still can't understand how that happens. Thanks [redacted].
 
Anyone heard how Keyshawn is doing in practice? He could be a big help next season.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I don't have an exact level that I'm "demanding" I just don't think he's easily replaced by one player - particularly anyone on our roster in the next year or so and I rate Collins VERY highly. Collins has a higher ceiling as someone said earlier, and is likely better suited for NBA play due to his size and not being a tweener. You're probably right about the Mitchell point.
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Gotcha. And I don't mean to be sound negative about how Devin is playing this year. At his best he's as good as any big man in the ACC. I just see overall success as a combination of ceiling, consistency, and depth. Even if Devin is too much of a tweener for the NBA, his ceiling of 2nd or 3rd team all-ACC is still damn good. He's just not consistent enough (up to this point) to quite get there.

I doubt that 10 games into next season we will have a player putting up 17 and 11 inside. I do think we can be a deeper, more consistent team and make up for his overall production though. Plus Collins has 8 double-digit games before playing his first conference game, so it's not like 14 and 8 would be some absurd mark for him to hit next year. I also think that because we have limited minutes for the talent at the 4 and 5 spots and a collision at the point guard position between Codi and Crawford that we're not maxing out the talent we have now. That should also make it a little easier to improve next year.
 
ManhassetDeac said:
The Donald Trump of these boards. Stay stupid angry shit and get the idiots to believe you.
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CMM just isn't a skilled player. He had 2 points tonight. Several bad turnovers . His only basket was a put back from his own shot that missed the rim. He can rebound. He can defend. He can score on the break and occasionally on a drive into the lane in the halfcourt. That's it. He's very limited and will get you beat if you have to depend on him to score or make a big play. Crawford is SO much better.
 
Such a dumb argument. CMM averaged almost 15 PPG, 5 RB and 5 ASS. He isn't playing well in his few games this year on the offensive end, but he could be a huge asset for this team if he can regain last seasons form.
 
CMM did very little outside of his rebounds and defense tonight, but both of those were huge for WF. CMM is one of the main reasons Simmons was mostly quiet (outside of the semi-garbage time stuff). Without CMM being able to play competently there, WF loses the game as Simmons likely would have fouled out every WF post player with his all-star treatment. Codi is not at where he needs to be in terms of his overall game but if he can continue to provide rebounds and strong defense while he works his way back to maximum game readiness, that'll be a huge help for the otherwise defensively inept team.

In terms of Crawford vs Codi, who cares right now? Both are going to need to be key contributors if WF wants to make the post-season.
 
IslandDeac said:
CMM did very little outside of his rebounds and defense tonight, but both of those were huge for WF. CMM is one of the main reasons Simmons was mostly quiet (outside of the semi-garbage time stuff). Without CMM being able to play competently there, WF loses the game as Simmons likely would have fouled out every WF post player with his all-star treatment. Codi is not at where he needs to be in terms of his overall game but if he can continue to provide rebounds and strong defense while he works his way back to maximum game readiness, that'll be a huge help for the otherwise defensively inept team.

In terms of Crawford vs Codi, who cares right now? Both are going to need to be key contributors if WF wants to make the post-season.
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Good points. Not sure why you would waste your time making them in an argument with an alcoholic buffoon.
 
Wake doesnt win that game without CMM, though I agree his offensive game has certainly regressed. Still, he bodied Simmons all night and made him uncomfortable...Devin really isnt that bright. Cant show up the refs on a regular basis and be shocked when the calls go against you.
 
Hey asshats, want to know something, we would have lost to LSU if we didn't have CMM.
 
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