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CROOKED Hilary

I find the idea that there's little difference between an Obama/Biden/Hillary/Kerry foreign policy and a Bush/Cheney/Powell/Rice foreign policy absurd. W was far more willing to go to war. Obama is more measured.

What does more measured look like, though? Obama had a hawk as his Secretary of State, as well as an obstructionist right wing Congress, and our foreign policy has reflected that for 7.5 years. We're still in Iraq. We're still in Afghanistan. We're still playing proxy war games. We're still using drones. Like I wrote above, Obama has been a pretty outstanding representative of this country and he has led us through some amazing social changes, but I find it hard to separate the foreign policy president that I wish that he was from how his two terms have actually panned out.
 
What does more measured look like, though? Obama had a hawk as his Secretary of State, as well as an obstructionist right wing Congress, and our foreign policy has reflected that for 7.5 years. We're still in Iraq. We're still in Afghanistan. We're still playing proxy war games. We're still using drones. Like I wrote above, Obama has been a pretty outstanding representative of this country and he has led us through some amazing social changes, but I find it hard to separate the foreign policy president that I wish that he was from how his two terms have actually panned out.

Measured looks like a massive reductions in the number of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
Measured looks like a massive reductions in the number of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If Hillary and the DLC had not scuttled Howard Dean's candidacy in late 2003 to clear a path for her to run for president in 2008, we would have had all those troops out of Iraq by the end of 2005......11 years ago.
 
As John McCain points out, Hillary Clinton was SOS for four years and accomplished nothing.

On her part being SOS was pure and simple do-nothing resume polishing; for Obama it was keeping his enemy and rival under close scrutiny.
 
Measured looks like a massive reductions in the number of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Okay, sure. It could be a lot worse. I suppose that's the DNC's line these days. 9800 troops are still on the ground in Afghanistan. That "war" started in 2001. George W Bush signed the agreement in 2008 that negotiated withdrawing all American troops from Iraq by December 2011. As of 2014, just three years after Obama withdrew all troops, we were back in Iraq.

Does measured include the increased reliance on drone warfare?

Does measured include resuming Nixon and Reagan-era overseas proxy interventions such as the mishandling of regime change in Honduras and Libya?

This entire side conversation came out of this juicecrewallstar's post:

How is Obama different than your description of GWB? He started more foreign conflicts, oversaw more drone attacks, and deported more people than Bush. He paid lip service to lots of things around financial sector reform, criminal justice reform, and other progressive policies, but only has a half-assed healthcare law to his credit. Congress definitely prevented some things, but he also exercised his executive powers in a non-progressive way. Hell, he had Hillary as his Secretary of State! It just bothers me when the anti-Hillary democrats don't apply the same lens to Obama.

Arguing about whether or not the Obama administration's approach is more or less measured than his predecessor without considering the entirety of US foreign policy from 2009-present basically proves the above post's point.
 
If Hillary and the DLC had not scuttled Howard Dean's candidacy in late 2003 to clear a path for her to run for president in 2008, we would have had all those troops out of Iraq by the end of 2005......11 years ago.
This thread is much better reality based kthx
 
If Hillary and the DLC had not scuttled Howard Dean's candidacy in late 2003 to clear a path for her to run for president in 2008, we would have had all those troops out of Iraq by the end of 2005......11 years ago.

No, we wouldn't have. The defense contracts alone were going to keep us in the region until the end of the decade. Too much money outlaid and too many hands in the pot to let it all go away so easily.
 
Libya was happening with us or without us. Our NATO allies were pushing for action as well.
 
How could this happen?!

Emails From Hillary Clinton’s IT Director at State Department Appear to Be Missing
The State Department said today it can’t find Bryan Pagliano’s emails from the time he served as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s senior information technology staffer during her tenure there.

Pagliano would have been required to turn over any official communications from his work account before he left the government. State Department officials say he had an official email account, but that they can't find any of those records he would have turned over and continue to search for them.
This statement about Pagliano’s email comes in response to a FOIA request-turned-lawsuit by the Republican National Committee, which wants the State Department to turn over all his emails as well as Clinton’s text and Blackberry Messenger communications. In a court filing today, the RNC said the State Department has told them there are no documents responsive to either of those requests.

Pagliano was responsible for setting up the now-infamous private server in the basement of the Clinton's home in Chappaqua, New York. He has since become a key witness in the FBI inquiry into the handling of sensitive material on that server and has been granted immunity by the Justice Department in exchange for his cooperation.

“It’s hard to believe that an IT staffer who set up Hillary Clinton’s reckless email server never sent or received a single work-related email in the four years he worked at the State Department," the RNC's Deputy Communications Director, Raj Shah, said in a statement to ABC News. "Such records might shed light on his role in setting up Clinton’s server, and why he was granted immunity by the FBI. But it seems that his emails were either destroyed or never turned over, adding yet another layer to the secrecy surrounding his role.”
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/emails-found-hillary-clintons-senior-staffer-state-department/story?id=38989504
 
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No one has laid a glove on trump yet. The GOP challengers ran away from him screaming, Clinton surrogates will destroy him. He won't be able to hide in debates against her.

She will beat him worse than Obama beat McCain in the popular vote.

It's not like Trump won't have plenty to work with against Hillary too. This election would be really, really entertaining if it weren't so depressing.
 
It's not like Trump won't have plenty to work with against Hillary too. This election would be really, really entertaining if it weren't so depressing.

enjoy the entertainment now, you'll have plenty of time to be depressed later, and believe me: no matter the outcome you will be depressed, more often than not
 
It's not like Trump won't have plenty to work with against Hillary too. This election would be really, really entertaining if it weren't so depressing.

Her numbers are basically baked in.

How does he win with 87% of Hispanics, net -50% with women and higher negatives with blacks?

Again it's about the numbers.
 
Her numbers are basically baked in.

How does he win with 87% of Hispanics, net -50% with women and higher negatives with blacks?

Again it's about the numbers.

im not sure if you heard this but, Hispanics love Donald Trump
 
Her numbers are basically baked in.

How does he win with 87% of Hispanics, net -50% with women and higher negatives with blacks?

Again it's about the numbers.

Oh I agree that at this point it's going to be incredibly hard for him to convince someone who's going to vote for her now to end up voting for him. He will still have plenty of material to use against her though.
 
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