Fantrax/CDM Fantasy Sports

[RChildress107]

You forgot another category where Paul ranks #1: Great PGs whose teams have never won anything. This is his 13th year of organized basketball. Two years at West Forsyth, two years at Wake Forest, six years at New Orleans & three years with the Clippers....and right now, he has a perfect record of losing the last game his team played in every year. Never beat a team seeded better than 12th in the NCAA Tournament. Never made it past 2nd Round in any of his 8 years to date in the NBA.

Don't get me wrong. I think Chris Paul is a great point guard....one of the better ones in history. It would certainly help his resume, though, if he could ever win a game that really mattered, for a change. He had a chance to do that at Wake Forest. Two chances, really. He blew the first one when he let his temper get the best of him....then opted not to even take the second chance. In eight years in the NBA, he hasn't even been able to take his team to the conference finals, much less win a championship. He's made a helluva lot of money, though.....

(By the way, those "two best offenses in the past decade" that Paul led at Wake Forest never won a single ACC Tournament game. The two 1st Round games and one 2nd Round game they won in the NCAA Tournament were over #13-seed VCU by 1 point, #12-seed Manhattan by 4 points and #15-seed Chattanooga, after trailing by 11 points.)

You could say the same about Stockton, Nash, and even Oscar (didn't win a championship until he was 33 on the coattails of Alcindor).

And it's not like Chris has been bad in the playoffs. He's the only player ever to average 20 points, 9 assists, and 2 steals in his playoff career.

 

[aceeight]

guess you have time after all.

It certainly would help his resume, and right now its the only thing holding him back from being a consensus top 3 PG of all time. To be fair, he's never had the teammates capable of helping him get there. He does now and it will be interesting to see what he does over the next few years.

You would think posters on a fantasy baseball thread would have an appreciation for an individual's statistical greatness even in the absence of team success.

Also Chris lost two games that really mattered at Wake. He averaged 17.5 points, 8.5 assists, and 2.5 steals in those two games. He didn't lose his temper in either one. (The game where he did lose his temper was a game that didn't matter and we won that one on a last minute shot).

"a consensus top 3 PG of all time" Wow! and I thought Kentucky fans were delusional. You only ask for 5 better point guards and I obliged. How about Oscar Robertson, Frazier!, Iverson, Payton, Moncrief, and Archibald? You can't be more than 20 years old.

 

[aceeight]

You could say the same about Stockton, Nash, and even Oscar (didn't win a championship until he was 33 on the coattails of Alcindor).

And it's not like Chris has been bad in the playoffs. He's the only player ever to average 20 points, 9 assists, and 2 steals in his playoff career.

You really want to compare Chris Paul with Oscar Robertson?

Oscar Robertson was named the 36th best athlete of the century. Named one of the top 50 NBA players of all time.The only player in NBA history to average a triple-double for a season. (this is a short list)

I will stick to baseball, but you need to find a sport you know something about.

 

[RChildress107]

"a consensus top 3 PG of all time" Wow! and I thought Kentucky fans were delusional. You only ask for 5 better point guards and I obliged. How about Oscar Robertson, Frazier!, Iverson, Payton, Moncrief, and Archibald? You can't be more than 20 years old.

again stick to baseball. Nash is not better than Paul. Isiah and Stockton are at this point, but not for long. Especially if Chris wins a championship (Stockton was more durable and consistent than anything else). Magic and Oscar are clearly ahead of him.

He's clearly better than Frazier, Iverson, Payton, Moncrief, and Archibald. Rank the following 8 guys as PG's. I included raw stats as well as two tempo free stats (PER and True Shooting Percentage: ) to control for these guys playing in vastly different eras. If steal data was unavailable I included rebounds.

Player A: 26.7 PPG; 3.9 APG; 2.2 SPG; 24.0 PER; TS%: .518

Player B: 34.0 PPG; 11.4 APG; 2.8 RPG; 25.2 PER; TS%: .555

Player C: 14.1 PPG; 8.4 APG; 1.3 SPG; 15.3 PER; TS%: .574

Player D: 23.2 PPG; 5.8 APG; 6.7 RPG; 21.6 PER; TS%: .576

Player E: 21.7 PPG; 8.7 APG; 2.2 SPG; 23.1 PER; TS%: .519

Player F: 18.6 PPG; 9.9 APG; 2.4 SPG; 25.6 PER; TS%: .575

Player G: 22.5 PPG; 3.9 APG; 1.5 SPG; 22.6 PER; TS%: .602

Player H: 22.8 PPG; 11.0 APG; 2.8 SPG; 30.0 PER; TS%: .599

 

[RChildress107]

You really want to compare Chris Paul with Oscar Robertson?

Oscar Robertson was named the 36th best athlete of the century. Named one of the top 50 NBA players of all time.The only player in NBA history to average a triple-double for a season. (this is a short list)

I will stick to baseball, but you need to find a sport you know something about.

When it comes to not winning anything sure. When it comes to on the court performance not quite. Just pointing out that using championships as a comparative factor in a team sport has limited use. Robert Horry has more championships than MJ.

Oscar's triple double season is impressive but a little less so considering the tempo of the era and the number of minutes he played (dude averaged 42 mpg during his career which just doesn't happen anymore). Oscar is better, as i stated above, but him and Magic are the only two that are clearly above CP3 through 9 seasons.

 

[RChildress107]

You really want to compare Chris Paul with Oscar Robertson?

Oscar Robertson was named the 36th best athlete of the century. Named one of the top 50 NBA players of all time.The only player in NBA history to average a triple-double for a season. (this is a short list)

I will stick to baseball, but you need to find a sport you know something about.

You said Sydney Moncrief (who wasn't really even a PG) was a better PG than Chris Paul with a straight face. Here are their career assist totals: Chris - 6112, Sydney: 2793. That's like saying Greg Vaughn is a better home run hitter than Babe Ruth.

 

[RChildress107]

If you really believe that, you are very short-sighted. I have already laid out the timeline to show where that one incident could well have cost WF a trip to the Final Four...but here it is one more time:

If Chris Paul had not lost his temper in that game at Raleigh at the end of the year, he would not have been suspended for the first game of the ACC Tournament. If he had played in that game, we would have in all likelihood won that game....ensuring us of a #1 seed instead of the #2 seed that we actually got. If we had been a #1 seed, we would never have played that game aginst West Virginia. The bottom line in of all of this, however, is that the guy who is supposed to be the team's leader cannot let his temper put his team in that kind of situation. This is one of Chris Paul's weaknesses: His temper. Truly great players can control things as simple as their own personal behavior in the heat of battle.

Maybe Paul will mature and reach the point where he has learned to do that....and maybe he will someday lead one of his teams to a championship. First, though, he has to lead a team to just get into the championship series....or even the conference championship series preceding the championship series. Chris Paul has done none of those things as of yet. Maybe this will be the year....but I doubt it.

But apparently truly great coaches cannot.

 

[RChildress107]

If you really believe that, you are very short-sighted. I have already laid out the timeline to show where that one incident could well have cost WF a trip to the Final Four...but here it is one more time:

If Chris Paul had not lost his temper in that game at Raleigh at the end of the year, he would not have been suspended for the first game of the ACC Tournament. If he had played in that game, we would have in all likelihood won that game....ensuring us of a #1 seed instead of the #2 seed that we actually got. If we had been a #1 seed, we would never have played that game aginst West Virginia. The bottom line in of all of this, however, is that the guy who is supposed to be the team's leader cannot let his temper put his team in that kind of situation. This is one of Chris Paul's weaknesses: His temper. Truly great players can control things as simple as their own personal behavior in the heat of battle.

Maybe Paul will mature and reach the point where he has learned to do that....and maybe he will someday lead one of his teams to a championship. First, though, he has to lead a team to just get into the championship series....or even the conference championship series preceding the championship series. Chris Paul has done none of those things as of yet. Maybe this will be the year....but I doubt it.

And for what it's worth I said the game didn't matter. Which it didn't.

The punch and the aftermath clearly did matter.

 

[RChildress107]

You don't even understand why Bob Knight did that. You don't know the game circumstances at the time or the reasoning behind his actions in that incident. He did it for a specific reason. It was a calculated move....and not for the reasons that the critics who like to talk about that incident think it was. That's why I don't care to talk about Coach Knight with these people. They have no idea what they are talking about and are just regurgitating crap that they have been fed by media sources with an agenda.

And as much as you wish it wasn't so, neither do you.

 

[RChildress107]

Well, in any event, it led to a team that was ranked #1 in the country at one time being knocked out of the NCAA Tournament in the 2nd Round.

The Clippers are a 7.5-point favorite at home tonight...so maybe Paul's team can make it to the 2nd Round. That's usually where his teams run into better teams.

FIFY

I'm sure you will be watching and cheering him on tonight though.

 

[RChildress107]

"If the NBA was on channel five and a bunch of frogs making love were on channel four, I'd watch the frogs – even if they were coming in fuzzy."

Read more: http://www.mademan.com/mm/10-best-bobby-knight-quotes.html#ixzz30hFFYmVh

That's what i thought. I guess i shouldn't be surprised that you are unable to distinguish good basketball from fucking frogs.

If you are half as horrible a person as your mentor then I hope I never cross your path. Bob Knight's biggest problem is that he thought being a basketball genius allowed him to treat others however he wanted. Hopefully you are not as bitter as that man is, or as you pretend to be on these boards.

I'll bow out from this thread and let you get back to talking about your preferred shade of grossly overpaid professional athletes who don't play the game the same way it used to be played.

 

[bmoneydeac]

BKF you may have answered this before but I'm genuinely curious how you can still watch baseball when all of your criticisms of the NBA have pretty strong parallels to MLB? Selective enforcement of the rules, fighting, money grubbing athletes, etc. Is it strictly because of fantasy baseball?

 

[RChildress107]

BKF you may have answered this before but I'm genuinely curious how you can still watch baseball when all of your criticisms of the NBA have pretty strong parallels to MLB? Selective enforcement of the rules, fighting, money grubbing athletes, etc. Is it strictly because of fantasy baseball?

64% to 19%. That's the most likely explanation if we are being honest. Whether that's a conscious choice on bkf's part, who knows.

 

[bmoneydeac]

Fantasy baseball is definitely a big part of it. That's why I don't really care which teams win. Not really. Oh, I'd like to see the White Sox win & the Braves lose...as long as it doesn't affect my fantasy team. However, I have Freddie Freeman (and am considering picking up Justin Upton tomorrow) on my fantasy team. If the Braves were playing the White sox, I'd love to see Freeman hit 4 homeruns against them.

I do disagree with your assumptions about the rules, etc., though. I think that baseball is played much closer to the way that it has always been played than basketball, for example. That is one of my biggest gripes about basketball. Defensive players are not supposed to have their hands on the offensive player to impede his moves....and offensive players are not supposed to be forcing contact with defensive players when driving with the ball....and that stuff didn't use to happen anywhere close to as much as it does today. There is just entirely too much physical contact in basketball today. The game of basketball was designed to have only incidental contact. Just because players have gotten bigger & stronger doesn't mean that these rules of the game should no longer apply.

I don't see anything comparable to that which has changed in the game of baseball over the years. As far as "money-grubbing athletes" go, I agree with you that there isn't much difference between basketball & baseball players.

I actually watched several Youtube clips of NBA finals games from the 60s and 70s and I'll agree that some of the off ball stuff is more physical today although they still did a fair amount of bumping cutters, grabbing jerseys, etc. back then. Also a lot of uncalled travels by the letter of the law. Apparently they used to fight a lot more back in the 50s than they do today. NBA has by far the fewest altercations of the major sports, I'd imagine. Hell there were definitely more hard fouls at any time in NBA history than there are today.

The biggest difference is how much more athletic and more skilled players are today. I can imagine the freakish nature of the athletes makes it tough to officiate. They've definitely reined in the physical play in the last 15 years though.

 

[bmoneydeac]

I'm not a baseball guy at all so I'm just repeating something I've heard a lot lately but I hear complaints about the strike zone being called a lot differently than it was years ago. Much tighter which has led to more dominant pitching. I also found the recent pine tar story pretty funny where basically everyone was like, yeah you can cheat, just don't cheat by putting it on your neck where everyone can see it.

 

[RChildress107]

Defensive players are not supposed to have their hands on the offensive player to impede his moves....and offensive players are not supposed to be forcing contact with defensive players when driving with the ball....and that stuff didn't use to happen anywhere close to as much as it does today. There is just entirely too much physical contact in basketball today. The game of basketball was designed to have only incidental contact. Just because players have gotten bigger & stronger doesn't mean that these rules of the game should no longer apply.

Gervin believes the NBA lacks the physicality it once had

Kobe Bryant: NBA 'finesse' now

Horace Grant says NBA used to be more physical

NBA eliminates hand checking in 1995

But I'm sure you know more about physicality than any of those guys.

Like I said, one sport has 64% of something, the other only has 19%. That's the most likely explanation.

 

[RChildress107]

You're all wet with that claim....and it's just a lazy way for you to try to make an argument against me. I've been a liberal all my life. I can promise you...and ace can verify this from 17 years of posting, going back to 1997 on the old Yahoo boards....that I have come into far, far, far more criticism for my support for liberal causes & minorities than for any of the things you are trying to pin on me here. Have you never read any of my posts on the politics boards? I've told this before, but the very first vote I ever cast in my life, back in 1968 when I was 22 years old, was for Dr. Reginald Hawkins in the NC Democratic Gubernatorial primary....and it was the only vote he got in my rural, southern NC precinct. I realize that you have no earthly idea who Reginald Hawkins was....but you can google him if you would like to learn a little something about him. The problem here is that many people on this board seem to think that you cannot criticize actions or behavior by one race without being classified as a racist. That's total BS. No race has a lock on good or bad people ...or on right or wrong behavior. I have the utmost admiration for Barry Sanders, but I have no use for Adrian Peterson. Both men are black NFL running backs. I love Howard Dean...but I despise Dick Cheney. Both men are white politicians.

Donald Sterling has black friends too. You spend a lot of time criticizing young black men with tattoos who don't "value a college education" or play the game "the way it used to be played". Both of my grandfathers bent over backwards to help minorities in their communities throughout their lives, it doesn't stop them from buying into lazy OWG stereotypes. I have never claimed you consciously choose to watch the majority white sport over the majority black sport. I'm just making a reasonable assumption based off the stereotypes you always bring up when complaining about the NBA or downfall of college basketball.

Also WTF did Adrian Peterson do to get on your bad side.

 

[RChildress107]

And, like I said, you're FOS when you say that. And if you had been anywhere around me for about the last 50 years or so, you would realize how damned stupid that comment really is.

Every reason you give as to why you don't like the NBA or why you think basketball as a whole has gotten worse since your playing days is either demonstrably false (the game has gotten too physical B.S.) or plays into negative stereotypes of young black men in the NBA.

Where there is smoke there is usually fire. Even your "but I'm a liberal" defense a few posts up reads like a typical Southern Dixiecrat

 

[TopHat]

I really don't give a shit if BKF doesn't like basketball. I don't like the NBA now but that's because I think it is not physical enough and it's about 1-3 players not a team. Anyways I really need a big jump in pitching and am 1st on hitting but want to get rid of Harper for Braun. Any idea of the extent of his oblique injury? Any chance he is going to the DL?

 

[RChildress107]

Southern Dixiecrat? Damn, man. It's time to get a few things straight. Who the hell are you....how old are you...and where do you live? Southern Dixiecrat? Do you even know what the hell a "Southern Dixiecrat" is? My only son is named after Robert Kennedy. I was the 5th District campaign manager for George McGovern in 1972. I went to more than 20 campaign functions for Howard Dean in 2003-04. Do you think Southern Dixiecrats supported Robert Kennedy, George McGovern & Howard Dean? Or do you even know who the hell Robert Kennedy, George McGovern & Howard Dean are? You sure as hell don't sound like you have a fucking idea what a "Southern Dixiecrat" is...if you think I fir the profile of one. So I ask again, if you don't want to tell me who you are, at least tell me how old you are and where you live...because you aren't making a damned bit of sense with this stupid "Southern Dixiecrat" stuff.

Oh I know you aren't one, just knew the insult would hit home. Apparently I was right.