• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Official 2023-24 NBA Season Thread - Conference Finals: Celtics-Pacers, T-Wolves-Mavericks

Strickland33 said:
2&2, you’re a world historical donk

Watch a Wilt highlight reel. Dude was doing a helluva lot more than just dunking
Click to expand...
No shit, sherlock. Which is why most would consider him somewhere in the top 5 to 20 players in the history of the tens (hundreds?) of millions of people who have picked up a basketball, which is pretty damn impressive. Nobody claimed he wasn't an all-time great. But the question was why isn't he often in the GOAT conversation, and that is the differentiating factor when talking about that minuscule of perception difference at the absolute tip of the triangle.
 
PhDeac said:
Wilt had ridiculous stats and was a ridiculous athlete. But he didn't play against great competition most nights and only had 2 rings.
Click to expand...
And he mostly played on Warriors teams that could not beat the Celtics. He won 2 rings later with better 76ers and Lakers teams - and interrupted that insane string of Celtics titles. I still consider him the greatest of all-time over Michael, LeBron and Kareem in that order. I only have a dim memory of him playing as a kid, but I also remember that incredible house he had in the Hollywood hills. The Dipper was unstoppable, and it wasn't just dunks, unlike Shaq. It was mostly fadeaways. And then when he got criticized for scoring too much, he led the league in assists 1 year. And he had a good handle for his size and could lead fast breaks. He was Jokic with sprinter's speed - literally. He was also into track and field and was a great high jumper (and philanthropic when it came to track). Only thing he couldn't do was hit FTs. And he even tried the between his legs Rick Barry thing for a while. He was also a successful businessman, was rich and flaunted it. And the governator used to rave about how strong Wilt was. HBO or Showtime had a 3 part documentary on him that was really interesting. I believe the reason he isn't in the goat discussion as much was because he played before many games were on TV. I can remember watching pro games in the 70s, but I don't think they were televised that much in the 60s. So we just don't have as much of a collective memory of that era. And he would have been just as amazing in today's game - and would be hack a Wilted the last few minutes of every game.
 
Not saying Wilt would have won more titles in today's NBA, but there was no free agency in Wilt's day and no limits on a teams payroll. There was one team, the Celtics, so far ahead of all other NBA front offices in acquiring NBA talent that the Celtics stacked their roster, and the players could not leave unless and until the Celtics didn't want them any more. That can't happen any more. Teams can't keep that many elite players together for a decade. So, really deceiving to say "Wilt only won two titles" in that environment.

Wilt played in the NBA from the 1959 season until the 1973. Over those 15 seasons, the Celtics won 10 titles. Wilt won two (1967 and 1972); Knicks won two (Willis Reed and Clyde); Bucks won one (Kareem), and the Bullets won one (Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes).
 
It’s not deceiving to say two titles is a reason he’s not in the GOAT discussion.

And he was in the GOAT discussion until Jordan. Now Jordan is the near uncontested GOAT except among millennials who want to prop up Lebron and younger fans who never saw Jordan play.
 
and kareem somehow is left out of the discussion
 
Then is Bill Russell in the GOAT discussion with his nine titles, even though he had hall of famers all over his roster?

If you switch Bill Russell with Wilt, and Wilt wins 9+ titles with the Celts, is he the GOAT hands down? Have an issue when titles are used as the definitive criteria in GOAT discussions in team sports.

Look at what happened with Pat Mahomes this year, when the Chiefs failed to put a league average offensive roster around him. LeBron may be the GOAT, but he didn't win titles until he had HOF teammates, and if he had stayed in Cleveland, rather than go to Miami and LA, and the Cavs had failed to build their roster around him; people would be all over LeBron for winning "only" one title? It's bullshit.

To bring this closer to home, is Tim Duncan to blame for WF not making it to a single Final 4, much less a Natty, when he was at WF? Tim Duncan was a good college basketball player as I have seen in my life of watching basketball. Not his fault that Childress got sick, Rutland blew out his knee or that GDO failed to recruit enough elite talent. There is only so much that one player can do, even if they are the GOAT. Boggles my mind that anyone who has ever played team sports at any level does not know this.
 
Last edited:
It's not bullshit when the debate is about literally the single best player to have ever played. You are splitting hairs in any discussion of that nature, and at the end of the day you play to win the game. You can't not include championships, or lack thereof, in that discussion which is at the extreme margin and kind of ridiculous to begin with.
 
Pilchard said:
Not saying Wilt would have won more titles in today's NBA, but there was no free agency in Wilt's day and no limits on a teams payroll. There was one team, the Celtics, so far ahead of all other NBA front offices in acquiring NBA talent that the Celtics stacked their roster, and the players could not leave unless and until the Celtics didn't want them any more. That can't happen any more. Teams can't keep that many elite players together for a decade. So, really deceiving to say "Wilt only won two titles" in that environment.

Wilt played in the NBA from the 1959 season until the 1973. Over those 15 seasons, the Celtics won 10 titles. Wilt won two (1967 and 1972); Knicks won two (Willis Reed and Clyde); Bucks won one (Kareem), and the Bullets won one (Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes).
Click to expand...
1 minor correction or friendly amendment to your motion. Baltimore didn't win a title in the early 70s. They lost to the Lew Alcindar and Oscar Bucks in 1971. Unseld did win MVP as a rookie, but I don't think they had Hayes with them at that time - they had Monroe before trading him to the Knicks. It wasn't until 1978 that they won the title once they had Hayes and Dandridge. Unseld was another amazing player - maybe the best defensive center of his era at all of 6'6" or 6'7" - and the best outlet passer ever. But you explained better than I did why we shouldn't hold Wilt's only 2 titles against him.
 
Winning championships is the goal of the game. And this is NBA basketball. Only 5 guys on the court for each team. Any great player has a huge impact on the team. Great players play for 15+ years. They play bigger in the playoffs. It's not unfair to expect great players to win multiple championships.
 
So Bill Russell is the GOAT. 11 Titles.

  • Bill Russell (11 championships)
  • Sam Jones (10)
  • K. C. Jones (8)
  • Satch Sanders (8)
  • John Havlicek (8)
  • Jim Loscutoff (7)
  • Frank Ramsey (7)
  • Robert Horry (7)
  • Bob Cousy (6)
  • Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (6)
  • Michael Jordan (6)
  • Scottie Pippen (6)
Celtics have GOAT #1 through #5.
 
And now we've reached the point in the discussion where someone starts trolling because they know acknowledging the nuance invalidates their feined outgage.

I can't take this seriously if Pilch won't agree that championships are a reasonable way to parse between the players who are clearly the top 10-20 in the game.
 
Omg, the Simmons-Zach Lowe crossover pod just dropped. Let's go.

tenor.gif
 
Pilchard said:
So Bill Russell is the GOAT. 11 Titles.

  • Bill Russell (11 championships)
  • Sam Jones (10)
  • K. C. Jones (8)
  • Satch Sanders (8)
  • John Havlicek (8)
  • Jim Loscutoff (7)
  • Frank Ramsey (7)
  • Robert Horry (7)
  • Bob Cousy (6)
  • Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (6)
  • Michael Jordan (6)
  • Scottie Pippen (6)
Celtics have GOAT #1 through #5.
Click to expand...
this is a stupid post
 
It’s so hard to compare players across eras though. Wilt was understandable dominant, but an athlete like Lebron would make the heads of the plumbers who barely understood electricity explode.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top