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Steve Forbes credibility watch

myDeaconmyhand said:
You’re putting words in my mouth. My statement is that the program is middling - we aren’t improving year to year, and almost making the tournament this year will have no bearing on our chances of making the tournament next year. You and DV7 seem to be using the unlikelihood of Wake firing Forbes as a defense of his results, and trying to argue from that perspective.

In hindsight you could easily go back in time and see that neither Bzz nor Manning deserved their last season. Where do you think you are going to be after year 5 or 6 of Forbes not making the tournament? Still defending him for finishing .500 in the ACC? Hopefully not, but I guess we’ll see.
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Has there ever been a coach that was fired that you couldn't make that argument about?

I think this is a difficult league and finishing .500 or better isn't as easy as it looks. It's a tough existence when a team can get a double bye and not be a tournament lock.

I think it would be foolish to eat a bunch of years of salary based on what we have seen so far. That calculus could change in a couple of seasons.
 
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birdman said:
All the metrics are invented though.
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Making the NCAA tournament is a pretty well established standard of success for Big 5 schools. The NCAA tournament is literally the definition of competing for the championship. That’s far less of an arbitrary metric than every other quality that Forbes is being praised for. I think the few people who are refusing to acknowledge a tournament bid as the standard measure of the program & coach are being disengenious.

Do you think any ACC coach in their introductory press conference talks about finishing .500 in conference as a goal they aspire to? Fuck no.
 
wakelaw13 said:
I think context matters and it’s not as black and white as you’re making it seem.
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Every season is different, every set of results has its own context, yet a trend is still a trend. Hopefully our analytics get us a bid this year somehow, but it’s unlikely.
 
So if we somehow lucked into a bid, would your viewpoint on Forbes completely change?
 
ChrisL68 said:
So if we somehow lucked into a bid, would your viewpoint on Forbes completely change?
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My opinions on his coaching and my opinion on the safety of his job status are separate. I think making the tournament would almost guarantee him 2-3 more years here. Regarding my opinion of his coaching/program building, I would still view his program as middling, absent a decent tourney run. Being on the bubble all fucking year, and losing games in the fashion we do as the more talented team, annoys the shit out of me.
 
birdman said:
Plenty of people were clamoring for Dino to be fired after two seasons in the tourney.
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You just changed the context. Completely! I was responding to your assertion regarding Forbes, NOT a completely different time in history almost 15 years ago under Gaudio.

We were fat and happy, relatively speaking, in 2009. Currently, we are a barren desert of success. So, my response was to your assertion that Forbes would be run out of town after going to the NCAAT five times in a row not whether Dino Gaudio was the answer. Context is enormously important. Changing it changes the argument.
 
TheAbster said:
You just changed the context. Completely! I was responding to your assertion regarding Forbes, NOT a completely different time in history almost 15 years ago under Gaudio.

We were fat and happy, relatively speaking, in 2009. Currently, we are a barren desert of success. So, my response was to your assertion that Forbes would be run out of town after going to the NCAAT five times in a row not whether Dino Gaudio was the answer. Context is enormously important. Changing it changes the argument.
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History gives us data by which to make predictions about the future. You said no way would a lot of fans be calling for Forbes’ ouster if we flamed out in the first round 5 years in a row, and I responded that wake forest fans have done a similar thing in the past with a different coach. I’m not changing the argument, in fact your assertion here actually support my argument that the metrics are arbitrary. If the context makes one achievement acceptable but a different context makes a similar achievement unacceptable, the achievement is context dependent and therefore not an objective independent measure of success.
 
Gaudio wasn’t fired for losing anyway. People talk like Gaudio was fired for the Cleveland State loss, when he was actually let go after making the 2nd round of the tournament as a 9 seed. 14 years on it’s pretty obvious Dino was let go for the bad behavior and chaos in the program, with two of his players basically accused of rape on national television, Tony Woods accused of throwing his girlfriend off a bunk bed breaking her back, and Dino not getting along with Ron Wellman.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Gaudio wasn’t fired for losing anyway. People talk like Gaudio was fired for the Cleveland State loss, when he was actually let go after making the 2nd round of the tournament as a 9 seed. 14 years on it’s pretty obvious Dino was let go for the bad behavior and chaos in the program, with two of his players basically accused of rape on national television, and his not getting along with Ron Wellman.
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Should’ve kept him.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Gaudio wasn’t fired for losing anyway. People talk like Gaudio was fired for the Cleveland State loss, when he was actually let go after making the 2nd round of the tournament as a 9 seed. 14 years on it’s pretty obvious Dino was let go for the bad behavior and chaos in the program, with two of his players basically accused of rape on national television, and his not getting along with Ron Wellman.
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There's so much wrong in such as short post. Nobody thinks Gaudio was fired for only Cleveland State. He got an extension after Cleveland State, which was also after the alleged sexual assault took place. Dino was fired 6 months after receiving that extension. The allegations didn't go national until well after Dino was fired.

I'm sure Dino didn't get along with Wellman. And "14 years on it's pretty obvious" Dino underachieved with four players who went on to have long NBA careers. Dino was not a good coach. He wasn't a good coach for Wake. Wellman's mistake was hiring his long time friend instead of a legit coach.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
that’s a crazy statement for you to follow by claiming Dino was fired for only making the 2nd round of the tournament.
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This is what I actually said.

I'm sure Dino didn't get along with Wellman. And "14 years on it's pretty obvious" Dino underachieved with four players who went on to have long NBA careers. Dino was not a good coach. He wasn't a good coach for Wake.
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The WF head coaching job was much more attractive during Dino's tenure. WF had multiple NBA players. Nobody could imagine the bottomless depths the program could be brought down to, along with the lost decade. A lot of folks (mistakenly) believed getting rid of Dino would yield an even more successful coach, but we have come to know it didn't. Things got much, much worse than anyone could have possibly dreamed was possible.
 
yeah Wellman fired Dino in 2010 because he knew Ish would be in the league for 15 years. Your theory is Wellman was making decisions on faith that those 4 players would be long term NBA players? Absolute revisionism. Aminu was 2nd team ACC, Ish was 2nd team ACC and undrafted. Forbes has had 2 ACC POYs and a 1st team ACC player.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
yeah Wellman fired Dino in 2010 because he knew Ish would be in the league for 15 years. was predicting those players would be long term NBA players. Aminu was 2nd team ACC, Ish was 2nd team ACC and undrafted. Forbes has had 2 ACC POYs and a 1st team ACC player.
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C’mon man. Everybody knew Dino underachieved. That was clear then and it’s much clearer now.
 
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