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Steve Forbes credibility watch

Kent said:
Forbes won't get fired this year. I'm not sure whether I think he should be or not. All in all, probably not.

But to say he shouldn't be on a warm seat next year is to say WFU's basketball ceiling is low.
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Agreed. I think the real discussion is about our basketball ceiling.

I think our basketball ceiling is low (that could change in the future) and people who are unwilling to admit that are a bit delusional. I totally understand why others would disagree.
 
To put in perspective how little Steve Forbes has to do with our much larger problems:

NC State just won as many ACC tournament games this week that we have won in 18 years combined.
 
WindyCityDeac said:
Ceiling is low overall? Or under Forbes?
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Overall. I don’t have anything backing this up, but for the lifetime of a HS recruit right now, we might be the most unappealing power 5 program right now based on our lack of success during their lifetime and other limitations of the program.

Our big donors are stepping up NIL-wise, which is great. But kids today don’t give a crap about Tim Duncan or even Chris Paul even if it feels like those days were yesterday to some of the fans here
 
IAppreciateIt said:
Overall. I don’t have anything backing this up, but for the lifetime of a HS recruit right now, we might be the most unappealing power 5 program right now based on our lack of success during their lifetime and other limitations of the program.

Our big donors are stepping up NIL-wise, which is great. But kids today don’t give a crap about Tim Duncan or even Chris Paul even if it feels like those days were yesterday to some of the fans here
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I guess I just think our ceiling can be as high as anyone’s outside the massive powers. Get the right coach and Wake could be a top 20 team regularly. I don’t see why that can’t be the case
 
WindyCityDeac said:
I guess I just think our ceiling can be as high as anyone’s outside the massive powers. Get the right coach and Wake could be a top 20 team regularly. I don’t see why that can’t be the case
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It can't be the case for one simple reason that we refuse to acknowledge.

The Joel is too big.
 
WindyCityDeac said:
I guess I just think our ceiling can be as high as anyone’s outside the massive powers. Get the right coach and Wake could be a top 20 team regularly. I don’t see why that can’t be the case
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One hundred programs are saying they should be a top 20 team regularly. And that includes the teams that have actually been the top 20 teams lately.

I don’t think there is a ton of rationale for saying we should be better than these other programs who have advantages over us (financially and in recent basketball history).

I do think we can work to adjust our ceiling by establishing ourselves back as a relevant program and investing in the school, NIL and the area around the Joel, and generally building more positive vibes and stability around the program.

If we spend those resources continually hiring/firing coaches, paying buyouts I think we are banking on getting super lucky, that I don’t think is a strategy.

^I do have a feeling that a lot of fans don’t really appreciate / understand the complexity of running an athletic department and how finance / resource allocation is probably the single most important thing involved
 
wakelaw13 said:
And they don’t even have their own arena!
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Of course NC State regrets leaving Reynolds. A horrible 25 years. Can’t recruit to a hockey arena. Their problem is now made even worse by the reality that the Canes have even more fans than the Pack. When a family is planning their week in Raleigh they don’t have time to attend both games—and it shows. Partnering with a professional franchise was not wise.

If Wake Forest were to win next years ACC tournament, it would also not change the fact that we have not done right by our team. The 25 year picture here for both schools speaks for itself.
 
spritethr said:
We have the talent (and I think we're by far a more talented team than State) but we can't get a single damn thing to give.
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I know it’s subjective, but that is likely untrue in general and “by far” seems way off base.
Watching Horne play all season, wouldn’t most have traded Sallis for him straight up? The Burns/Diarra combo can definitely go head to head with Carr/Reid. Then you have Morsell/Taylor/O’Connell vs Boopie/Cam. I feel those are similarly talented rosters.
 
inspectah_ said:
Maybe posted elsewhere, but of interest this week: https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach
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Pretty strong correlation there between success on the court and coaching salary. Outliers on both sides of course. I lean toward patience and like the direction of the program vs where we were 3 years ago. Hell, I just re-checked into these boards a few weeks ago so take that FWIW. A lot of disruptive change has happened since Covid. Extra eligibility, transfer portal, NIL, generational coaches retiring. I’d say 2 more years min before taking a hard look unless something egregious happens.

Watching other teams/conferences, I’d say we need to bolster our BB strength and conditioning to counter any ‘soft’ perception. Klintman had that frame so his loss hurt. Probably means a mix of HS recruiting/development and/or looking for that in the portal.

I think good things are in store for next year, and any more games we can play this year give us a chance to learn and get better (like a bowl game). Due to the chaos yesterday, there will be good teams in the NIT, and it would be an accomplishment to win it.


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daaberry said:
I know it’s subjective, but that is likely untrue in general and “by far” seems way off base.
Watching Horne play all season, wouldn’t most have traded Sallis for him straight up? The Burns/Diarra combo can definitely go head to head with Carr/Reid. Then you have Morsell/Taylor/O’Connell vs Boopie/Cam. I feel those are similarly talented rosters.
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Horne versus Boopie is the real difference.
 
donaldross said:
Of course NC State regrets leaving Reynolds. A horrible 25 years. Can’t recruit to a hockey arena. Their problem is now made even worse by the reality that the Canes have even more fans than the Pack. When a family is planning their week in Raleigh they don’t have time to attend both games—and it shows. Partnering with a professional franchise was not wise.

If Wake Forest were to win next years ACC tournament, it would also not change the fact that we have not done right by our team. The 25 year picture here for both schools speaks for itself.
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What families do you know that regularly plan weeks in Raleigh, especially during basketball/hockey season?
 
“Hey kids we’re going to vacation in Raleigh this week!” is just as weak as “Hey kids, we’re going to vacation in Durham this week….but you know you’ll get a chance to see a big high school gym”.

And correct me if I’m wrong (which I’m sure you’ll do, being a AAA), but isn’t Carter-Finley a stone’s throw away from bball arena? I’m anticipating the response to be, depends on the size and weight of the stone.
 
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Iowa hasn't hired a coach away from another P6 conference since Dr. Tom Davis came over from Stanford in '86.

Also, why the fuck would Iowa hire Forbes? McCaffery took Siena to three straight NCAA tournaments before Iowa hired him. Linkliter and Alford took Butler and SW Missouri St to the Sweet 16 before they were hired. Iowa isn't going to hire Forbes away from us.
 
MichiDeac94 said:
Pretty strong correlation there between success on the court and coaching salary. Outliers on both sides of course. I lean toward patience and like the direction of the program vs where we were 3 years ago. Hell, I just re-checked into these boards a few weeks ago so take that FWIW. A lot of disruptive change has happened since Covid. Extra eligibility, transfer portal, NIL, generational coaches retiring. I’d say 2 more years min before taking a hard look unless something egregious happens.

Watching other teams/conferences, I’d say we need to bolster our BB strength and conditioning to counter any ‘soft’ perception. Klintman had that frame so his loss hurt. Probably means a mix of HS recruiting/development and/or looking for that in the portal.

I think good things are in store for next year, and any more games we can play this year give us a chance to learn and get better (like a bowl game). Due to the chaos yesterday, there will be good teams in the NIT, and it would be an accomplishment to win it.


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Yes, yes, and more yes to the bolded statement. It feels like we start to run out of steam as we go through Feb into March. My high school basketball coach prepared those that expected to play on his team that we had better show up at tryouts already in top physical condition. And to that end we were one of the best basketball teams in NC. Not to say that our team isn't in top physical condition when the season starts but it feels like Wake players start to peter out as the season drags on.

Another thing is that State played with the attitude and desire of 7-8 Cam's this week. They played with a confidence that it seems like only Cam has on this Wake team. We just didn't look confident after we blew our wad against Duke.

ETA to say that lack of depth due to injuries or just being unplayable due to ability plays into this as well.
 
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IAppreciateIt said:
Overall. I don’t have anything backing this up, but for the lifetime of a HS recruit right now, we might be the most unappealing power 5 program right now based on our lack of success during their lifetime and other limitations of the program.

Our big donors are stepping up NIL-wise, which is great. But kids today don’t give a crap about Tim Duncan or even Chris Paul even if it feels like those days were yesterday to some of the fans here
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Great post, IAI

You get at another reason it’s pretty accurate to say that Wellman killed the basketball program. We basically lost a decade’s worth of potential fans and recruits, and it’s gonna take awhile to rebuild what we have (if we can rebuild at all).
 
Henry Chinaski said:
Stop. That is ridiculous LOWF shit, there’s no reason we’re not competitive / in the tournament.
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I am not saying we should not be competitive or in the tournament. I am saying recruiting is hard when you had 10 years of losing, playing infront of 3000 people and no tournament appearances. The kids we are recruiting now have never seen the program be successful, or if they did they were 5 years old. We need to make the tournament.it makes us an easier product to pitch
 
Again, Forbes will bring us where we want to be.

The dude immediately turned around a dumpster fire and we are now a respectable program.

I agree that it's time he gets us over the hump, and I complete confidence that'll be next season.
 
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