Timmy D #1 of All-time NBA players by positions as forward

[plama]

All Star MVP awards might be the most meaningless accolade being thrown out in this debate and you want to point to that as the most accurate measure. Seriously?

To be the best you gotta beat the best.

 

[LilburnDeac]

Two can play your "cherry picking" analysis game.




I think its a reach to assume Duncan could have shot the ball what equates to 6 times more per game and not have a dip in efficiency. I suspect if he had done that, the difference between the two players would be even more evident in their FG%'s, more clearly defining Malone as the game's greatest power forward.




Put Malone at Center half his career and its obvious Malone would have way more rebounds



Steals are about grit and grind and getting down and bending your knees. Blocks are about playing center and being tall. You keep bringing up 109 fewer games, they both played the same amount of seasons. Malone never played less than 80 games. Never. Duncan only has a few seasons where he can say that. The better player stays on the court. That's why you can't call Greg Oden great.




Was it Duncan's great Defense or the Admirals?



Malone played in a much tougher era. Pretty hard to get defensive all NBA awards in the era of Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and the bad boy Pistons. The Glove. Look at who Malone was in 2nd place to most of the years. The Admiral. The Dream. Mount Mutumbo. Then look at the guys Tim had to beat out. Shaq. Ratliff. Garnett. There's no contest.

So I do think the best thing to do would just to try and discount for the difference in era's as much as possible. An all star game is a good way to do that. Its a game in which both players are on the court with the best players of their generation, and Malone was chosen as the best of the best twice, to Duncan's once.




Pretty clear recency bias. Throw a few rings on Malone and people will look at his gaudy point totals. At the end of the day the game is about buckets. And Malone got buckets.

At the end of the day, the game is all about wins and championships. And Duncan got wins and championships.

 

[plama]

At the end of the day, the game is all about wins and championships. And Duncan got wins and championships.

If you wanna say the Spurs were better than the Jazz I would agree with you. But we're not talking teams, we're talking individuals.

 

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

Karl Malone probably wins the media category with his frequent correspondence on the Man Show. Much more impressive than razor commercials.

 

[TheReff]

Nobody has gotten luckier in their Finals matchups than the Spurs. Its ridiculous. The Knicks? Nets? Pistons? Cavs with Mo Williams as their 2nd best player? Knocking off the broken down Heat was the most impressive thing they did, but could only win when it was a blowout. You saw what Duncan was made of when he actually had a competitive finals series. He missed that bunny to lose the title in 2014 all by himself. He would have similarly wilted if he had to go through Jordan.

Luck, good fortune, call it whatever you want, but Timmy D calls it a ring for each finger & 1 for the thumb!

 

[plama]

Throw me out there with 1 star and 3 D-leaguers and its a pickem whether we'd beat a Byron Scott coached team with Kerry Kittles as their 3rd best player.

 

[Milhouse]

this thread got good

 

[scooter84]

This is purely hypothetical but I think most people would say that if you switched the players's teams and put Duncan on the Jazz for all those years, his scoring would look more like Malone's because they would have needed it. And, I dare say, they would have won more games. Because Duncan was better.

 

[ThinkingWithMyDeac]

So we have a bunch of people and one dumbass instead of the usually multiple dumbasses.

 

[421Deac]

At the end of the day the game is about buckets. And Malone got buckets.

John Stockton > Karl Malone

 

[Deacfreak07]

John Stockton > Karl Malone

Now we're just being silly.

 

[GaDeac]

"I think its a reach to assume Duncan could have shot the ball what equates to 6 times more per game and not have a dip in efficiency. I suspect if he had done that, the difference between the two players would be even more evident in their FG%'s, more clearly defining Malone as the game's greatest power forward."

Duncan has taken more than 20,000 field goal attempts in his career. That is a pretty large sample to build his average on. To say "you suspect" shows that your reasoning is based solely on your feelings, not historical fact. Historical fact, again with a very, very large sample size, shows that Duncan is a 50.9 percent field goal shooter. You assume his shooting percentage would have dropped, but history doesn't prove your assumption.

"Put Malone at Center half his career and its obvious Malone would have way more rebounds."

During his first nine seasons, of which he played power forward, Duncan had 8,020 rebounds in 666 games. That is an average of 12.0 rebounds per game. By your logic, if Duncan would have been listed as a power forward his entire career, he would "have way more rebounds."

"Steals are about grit and grind and getting down and bending your knees. Blocks are about playing center and being tall. You keep bringing up 109 fewer games, they both played the same amount of seasons. Malone never played less than 80 games. Never. Duncan only has a few seasons where he can say that. The better player stays on the court. That's why you can't call Greg Oden great."

Anyone that says blocks are about playing center and being tall, clearly knows nothing about the game of basketball. Regardless, in his nine seasons as a power forward, Duncan had 1,650 blocked shots, still 500 more than Malone. Both of these stats involve tough play. But to fit your argument, you only want to make it sound like one does.

And Malone played 49 games in 1998-99 and 42 games in his final season. So much for he "never played less than 80 games. Never."

"Was it Duncan's great Defense or the Admirals?

This is so ludicrous it doesn't deserve attention. So Duncan made the NBA All-Defensive team because he played with David Robinson. What about all the year's Robinson wasn't there? And if it was Robinson's defense, why didn't he win the awards? You should be embarrassed to even attempt to use this argument.

"Malone played in a much tougher era. Pretty hard to get defensive all NBA awards in the era of Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and the bad boy Pistons. The Glove. Look at who Malone was in 2nd place to most of the years. The Admiral. The Dream. Mount Mutumbo. Then look at the guys Tim had to beat out. Shaq. Ratliff. Garnett. There's no contest.

So I do think the best thing to do would just to try and discount for the difference in era's as much as possible. An all star game is a good way to do that. Its a game in which both players are on the court with the best players of their generation, and Malone was chosen as the best of the best twice, to Duncan's once."

Let's see, Garnett has been named to the All-Defensive team 12 times and a record nine times to the first team. Meanwhile, Kobe Bryant has also been named 12 times and is tied for the record with nine first team selections. And again, Duncan went head to head with Malone six times for this award and came out on top five times. As, before 2013-14, this award was voted on by NBA head coaches, clearly those professionals felt Duncan was a better defender.

As far as the All Star MVP award, I was hoping you would jump on this because as has already been pointed out, it is one of the most meaningless accolades available. I listed it simply because it showed the only thing Malone was better at was in a meaningless game.

Pretty clear recency bias. Throw a few rings on Malone and people will look at his gaudy point totals. At the end of the day the game is about buckets. And Malone got buckets.

Again, this shows you know nothing about basketball, or apparently sports in general. Are stats important, yes. But stats can also be greatly over-hyped. Ask any player if they would prefer to lead the league in scoring or win a championship. Every single one will take winning a championship. Winning is what the game, any game, is all about.

 

[DeacdeTejas]

Put Malone at Center half his career and its obvious Malone would have way more rebounds.

 

[ClemmonsDeac]

Malone was a good player - fun to watch.

He was also selfish with the ball, was constantly given great opportunities by one of the best point guards ever, and made those around him worse by hogging the ball to get his shots. He may have played with more all-stars if they thought he was a good team player who could coexist and share the ball.

Karl was fun to watch and a vanguard in the me first age of NBA talent. That is why his teams never got over the hump. Remember, "The mailman never delivers on Sunday"!:bowrofl:

http://www.complex.com/sports/2012/07/karl-malones-10-most-jackass-moments/

 

[421Deac]

Now we're just being silly.

Are we????
Malone - 36928 pts + 5248 assists (x2 just to make it easy) = 47,424 points from FGs and assists
Stockton - 19711 pts + 15,806 assists (x2) = 51,323 points from FGs and assists

Stockton must have back issues from carrying Malone so long. Stockton was really the one getting buckets. :thumbsup:

ETA: yes, of course this is silly

 

[cville deac]

I have a hard time believing this thread is still a thing.

 

[deaconson]

truly masterful. well done.

 

[421Deac]

truly masterful. well done.

I especially liked this one: "Steals are about grit and grind and getting down and bending your knees. Blocks are about playing center and being tall."

And the not so subtle reference to the Nature Boy: "To be the best, you gotta beat the best"

 

[deaconson]

I especially liked this one: "Steals are about grit and grind and getting down and bending your knees. Blocks are about playing center and being tall."

And the not so subtle reference to the Nature Boy: "To be the best, you gotta beat the best"

so which ogboards handle is a griz fan?

 

[plama]

Duncan has taken more than 20,000 field goal attempts in his career. That is a pretty large sample to build his average on. To say "you suspect" shows that your reasoning is based solely on your feelings, not historical fact. Historical fact, again with a very, very large sample size, shows that Duncan is a 50.9 percent field goal shooter. You assume his shooting percentage would have dropped, but history doesn't prove your assumption.

Anyone who doesn't know that an increase of usage rate generally results in a decrease in efficiency clearly doesn't know a lot of about basketball.

During his first nine seasons, of which he played power forward, Duncan had 8,020 rebounds in 666 games. That is an average of 12.0 rebounds per game. By your logic, if Duncan would have been listed as a power forward his entire career, he would "have way more rebounds."

Karl Malone lead the league in defensive rebounds twice in his career. '91 and '95. Duncan only once: '02. Best way to compare over different eras and adjusting for things like pace (more shots equals more rebounds). Malone was clearly the superior rebounder.

Anyone that says blocks are about playing center and being tall, clearly knows nothing about the game of basketball. Regardless, in his nine seasons as a power forward, Duncan had 1,650 blocked shots, still 500 more than Malone. Both of these stats involve tough play. But to fit your argument, you only want to make it sound like one does.

But a large amount of blocks result in the ball going out of bounds or the ball being blocked and going right back to the offensive player. Steals are clearly significantly more important than blocks.

And Malone played 49 games in 1998-99 and 42 games in his final season. So much for he "never played less than 80 games. Never."

I will give you that. Earlier I said he never played less than 80 games in a Jazz uniform. I guess finally taking a day off when he was 40 makes you win this point.

This is so ludicrous it doesn't deserve attention. So Duncan made the NBA All-Defensive team because he played with David Robinson. What about all the year's Robinson wasn't there? And if it was Robinson's defense, why didn't he win the awards? You should be embarrassed to even attempt to use this argument.

Because he had no real competition for all defensive awards. Christ, his biggest competition was Shaquille O'Neal. Does Shaq even have a reputation as a hardworking defender? Malone had Hakeem, and Robinson, Top 20 all time players known for their defense to compete against this award with. Name the top 20 all time player Duncan was competing with other than maybe Garnett.

Let's see, Garnett has been named to the All-Defensive team 12 times and a record nine times to the first team. Meanwhile, Kobe Bryant has also been named 12 times and is tied for the record with nine first team selections. And again, Duncan went head to head with Malone six times for this award and came out on top five times. As, before 2013-14, this award was voted on by NBA head coaches, clearly those professionals felt Duncan was a better defender.

the fact that Garnett won it so many times just proves my point. Besides those 2, there's literally no one in this era that's any good. Dawight maybe? There's no competition. Chris freaking Paul has won all defensive honors like 7 times including all 1st team the past 4. He hardly even tries out there during the regular season. He couldn't stop Mike Freakin' Gansey. that award is a joke nowadays.

As far as the All Star MVP award, I was hoping you would jump on this because as has already been pointed out, it is one of the most meaningless accolades available. I listed it simply because it showed the only thing Malone was better at was in a meaningless game.

True all time greats relish the idea of being the best on the court when surrounded by the best of the best. The fact that Malone won it twice shows he has more moxie. That's why Malone was part of the Dream Team, America's crowning athletic achievement, and Duncan was a part of the 2004 team, perhaps our largest embarrassment. As far as I know, that's the only time Ginobili and Duncan squared off, and maybe Duncan hasn't been carrying the Spurs all these years and instead he should thank his lucky stars he gets to play with Manu.

Again, this shows you know nothing about basketball, or apparently sports in general. Are stats important, yes. But stats can also be greatly over-hyped. Ask any player if they would prefer to lead the league in scoring or win a championship. Every single one will take winning a championship. Winning is what the game, any game, is all about.

And you win by having tons of hall of fame level teammates.