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Transgender Athletes

I mean he’s already admitted that he doesn’t care about women who play sports, his only concern is that trans women are NOT allowed to play. So I don’t know what he’s still doing here
 
IamThunderbolt said:
That’s not necessarily true. It’s been covered some here. But basically:

1) testosterone levels affect athletic performance
2) The greatest infusion of testosterone into the body is during male puberty.
3) being on estrogen mitigates the effects of testosterone in the body.
4) While research disagrees on the time length, those that are on estrogen hormone replacement therapy will have all competitive advantage of increased testosterone production eradicated within 1-4 years of being HRT - much of the variance has to do with individual levels of T production, receptiveness to HRT, and many other personal factors.
5) Estrogen will decrease muscle mass and increase fat storage in the hips and chest.
6) the only permanent effect of T on the body is the lengthening of vocal chords (lowering the voice, although there can be some change while on E) and the establishment of hair follicles.

So with the above being true:

1) there is no reason for an outright ban on trans athletes. There is room for discussion about how to determine when there is not a significant competitive advantage when on HRT, etc.

2) there is absolutely no reason to refer to trans athletes as cheaters, “trans-women (Aka makes), men who call themselves women, or any of the other things trans-athletes have been referred to in this thread.
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Another fantastic post from IAT! Thank you for putting in the work and breaking it down again. SUPERLIKE indeed.

I'd add:
7. Estrogenic second puberty can also decrease overall height (1-2 inches) through changes to anterior pelvic tilt and differences in cartilage water retention (for similar water retention reasons you'll also see chest/torso/rib-cage size decrease, hands will likely get slimmer, foot size can drop anywhere from 1-3 sizes etc.). This is not a guarantee ofc. For people that are fortunate enough to transition < 25 yrs old they can actually see similar hip rotation to AFAB puberty.

Also as a small correction, vocal chords can NOT reverse changes on E AFAIK. Any trans woman you've heard with a "passing" voice has likely put in hundreds of hours of work (or just was fortunate enough that their vocal chords didn't stretch much in puberty). Non-facial hair growth characteristics can and often do significantly change depending on genetics (body hair tends to get thinner and significantly lighter), even if the follicles were established in first puberty.
 
BeachBumDeac said:
I mean he’s already admitted that he doesn’t care about women who play sports, his only concern is that trans women are NOT allowed to play. So I don’t know what he’s still doing here
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Yes you do.
 
What she said:



You’ve asked me several questions on this thread and accused me of avoiding answering, so here goes.

I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.

I don’t believe a woman is more or less of a woman for having sex with men, women, both or not wanting sex at all. I don’t think a woman is more or less of a woman for having a buzz cut and liking suits and ties, or wearing stilettos and mini dresses, for being black, white or brown, for being six feet tall or a little person, for being kind or cruel, angry or sad, loud or retiring. She isn't more of a woman for featuring in Playboy or being a surrendered wife, nor less of a woman for designing space rockets or taking up boxing. What makes her a woman is the fact of being born in a body that, assuming nothing has gone wrong in her physical development (which, as stated above, still doesn't stop her being a woman), is geared towards producing eggs as opposed to sperm, towards bearing as opposed to begetting children, and irrespective of whether she's done either of those things, or ever wants to.

Womanhood isn't a mystical state of being, nor is it measured by how well one apes sex stereotypes. We are not the creatures either porn or the Bible tell you we are. Femaleness is not, as trans woman Andrea Chu Long wrote, ‘an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes,’ nor are we God’s afterthought, sprung from Adam’s rib.

Women are provably subject to certain experiences because of our female bodies, including different forms of oppression, depending on the cultures in which we live. When trans activists say 'I thought you didn't want to be defined by your biology,' it’s a feeble and transparent attempt at linguistic sleight of hand. Women don't want to be limited, exploited, punished, or subject to other unjust treatment because of their biology, but our being female is indeed defined by our biology. It's one material fact about us, like having freckles or disliking beetroot, neither of which are representative of our entire beings, either. Women have billions of different personalities and life stories, which have nothing to do with our bodies, although we are likely to have had experiences men don't and can't, because we belong to our sex class.

Some people feel strongly that they should have been, or wish to be seen as, the sex class into which they weren't born. Gender dysphoria is a real and very painful condition and I feel nothing but sympathy for anyone who suffers from it. I want them to be free to dress and present themselves however they like and I want them to have exactly the same rights as every other citizen regarding housing, employment and personal safety. I do not, however, believe that surgeries and cross-sex hormones literally turn a person into the opposite sex, nor do I believe in the idea that each of us has a nebulous ‘gender identity’ that may or might not match our sexed bodies. I believe the ideology that preaches those tenets has caused, and continues to cause, very real harm to vulnerable people.

I am strongly against women's and girls' rights and protections being dismantled to accommodate trans-identified men, for the very simple reason that no study has ever demonstrated that trans-identified men don't have exactly the same pattern of criminality as other men, and because, however they identify, men retain their advantages of speed and strength. In other words, I think the safety and rights of girls and women are more important than those men's desire for validation.I sincerely hope that answers your questions. You may still disagree, but as I hope this shows, I’m more than happy to have this debate.
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1776616861888655835/photo/1
 
To the extent that I even want to wade into this battle...

Right off the bat she is conflating "woman" and "female". Perhaps intentionally so because she even touches on the the differences between the two in the fourth paragraph, but seemingly doesn't differentiate between the two when it comes to making her point and being accurate as far as how they should be used. I would assume that is intentional.

I don't say that to just be an asshole who is parsing words, but she states her argument using the word "woman", and she really means "female". If she's going to have a take on it and write 1000 words staking her views, then I would think she would want to be as precise as possible so everybody understands what she is actually arguing.

She says that (she believes) "a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes", but what she should say is that "a FEMALE is a human being...".

Not everybody who is born a female is a woman, and vice versa.

"Female" is the biological moniker/sex at berth, while "woman" can be, and very much is, on a scale. Basically biology vs. identity.

Words matter, and when she's conflating them like this it just shows that she doesn't have a very firm grasp on what she is even arguing. Maybe it's just bigotry wrapped in flowery language though and that's her whole point.
 
BarcaDeac said:
I automatically refuse to watch any video with the Uber Driver Sucked Me Off?? style thumbnail

knowyourmeme.com

Uber Driver Sucked Me Off??

Uber Driver Sucked Me Off?? refers to a parody of clickbait YouTube thumbnails created by Twitter user @robwhisman. Since it was first posted in 2016, the
knowyourmeme.com knowyourmeme.com
Click to expand...
more enticing to olds on the internet, YouTube outrage bait thumbnails, or “Willie/Cheech swears by these completely legal CBD capsules”
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Not everybody who is born a female is a woman, and vice versa... "woman" can be, and very much is, on a scale. Basically biology vs. identity.

Words matter...
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Define "woman." I'm not a biologist, though I have given my definition already.

Also, can you give us more info about "the scale" of womanhood. Do you mean like 1-10 or something? 😄

 
CaptRenault said:
Define "woman." I'm not a biologist, though I have given my definition already.

Also, can you give us more info about "the scale" of womanhood. Do you mean like 1-10 or something? 😄

Click to expand...

I’m not going to do your research for you. If you want to be a bigot, be a bigot. You don’t need a random person on the message board to help you in that endeavor. You don’t mean enough to me to even begin to get under my skin, which is your goal. You’re not arguing in good faith, you just want to discriminate, which is your god given right, so godspeed.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
she states her argument using the word "woman", and she really means "female".

"Female" is the biological moniker/sex at berth, while "woman" can be, and very much is, on a scale. Basically biology vs. identity.
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idk, I'm pretty creeped out any time someone, usual a man, uses "female" as a noun
 
Something that never happens...happened again. :unsure: YOU GO...uh, girl.

A trans woman, who was a mediocre athlete when competing as a male at Div. III RIT, magically switched his sex to female and went on to win 2 events (200M and 400M) and take 4th as a member of the 4X100M relay at the recent Liberty League championships.




RIT track.jpeg
 
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