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WFU Hoops: '24-'25 Roster Construction Thread: (-) Carr, Monsanto, Ituka, Clark, Miller, Marsh, Keller, Canka / (+) Spillers, Biliew, Cosby

tigerswood said:
I'm sure it happens at some schools. Coach probably pays a sketchy non-profit, non-profit sends it to the NIL collective. Collective pays player. It's the wild west out there now.
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I'm sure that's under the "administration costs" line item of the non profit's disclosure statement
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
As I see them, the arguments supporting Forbes are this:

1. Forbes has already accomplished enough

2. Forbes has improved the program such that people believe he will soon accomplish enough

3. Accomplishment aside, Wake is incapable
of hiring a superior replacement.


My opinion is that none of those are true.
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This is kind of a reductionist synthesis of these arguments imo.

1 and 2 are closely related and I don't think anyone is outright claiming 1. To say he's already accomplished "enough" implies that there is no expectation of future growth. Nobody is saying there is no need for progress.

I understand the line of thinking for 2 and it's kind of where I fall at the moment, but I think the statement, as written, ignores some of the nuance here. To follow birdman's lead, we have data to suggest Forbes is capable of making the NCAAT. We have data to suggest Forbes has coached more than one team at Wake that probably (statistically speaking) should have been in the tournament. We have data to suggest he can recruit multiple NBA-caliber players to the same team and can recruit All-ACC and ACC POY-level kids consistently.

As I see it, the question is how big is the Forbes variable in this equation? Sure, he shoulders some level of responsibility for not making the NCAAT in his first three actual seasons and it's fair game to disagree on how much of this is solely because of Forbes, but the way 2 is written makes it sound like the thought that Forbes can get it done and get it done soon is some uninformed, overly-idealistic position, which makes it easier to shit on.

Nobody is arguing 3. You're right in that this is a very high paying position with high expectations. All anybody is saying here is that making firing and hiring decisions completely independent of each other in our current situation could be dangerous and is probably imprudent. Making each of these decisions in a vacuum is like cashing out an investment with a known return and a possibly high upside to go to the roulette table and put it all on red. The stock might keep going up, but you're not taking your money to the casino in this case unless you either have a sure bet or there is near-zero opportunity for future growth. What it comes down to is disagreeing on whether Forbes has hit his ceiling at Wake or not and if you don't think he has yet hit his ceiling how much time are you willing to give him to get there.

To be clear, I do think there are several coaches out there who would be clear upgrades, but if you're going to replace Forbes now it needs to be with someone who you think is going to be better and this thinking needs to be backed up by something. If there is a clear upgrade we can land tomorrow then yeah we should totally move on, but it's fair to ask how many, if any, of these coaches are available to Wake now? I don't think asking this is LOWF. The question is does Forbes' performance to date currently warrant taking on the risk that comes with burning it all down? This question exists for every program to some degree.

Maybe it's the trauma of the past decade+ that is making me risk averse, but I do think our fanbase is still in a rock bottom, DFL, unwiped ass mindset. There was zero risk to firing [Redacted] and Manning. Virtually no person with a pulse could have made those situations worse so it's easy to look at those firings, and subsequent hirings, as decisions that could be made independent of each other. This situation is different, imo.

And for posterity's sake, my position right now is that I still think Forbes can get us consistently to the NCAAT and that it's possible for him to win big here. I might be wrong or I might be right. Nothing's guaranteed here. I think he should get one more season to prove this by, at minimum, making the NCAAT. If he doesn't do this next year then it's time to move on.
 
And sorry mdmh for attaching my diatribe to your post. It's not entirely directed at it. It just made a convenient spot for me to write some stuff I've been thinking about.
 
Frosty said:
And sorry mdmh for attaching my diatribe to your post. It's not entirely directed at it. It just made a convenient spot for me to write some stuff I've been thinking about.
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All good, man.
 
Pilchard said:
Not a joke. It's been disclosed on this Board by RTQ that WF made a significant offer to Boopie to stay. Boopie (or more precisely those advising him) thought he was entitled to more (apparently $500k). WF could not get there and have the funds to retain others; so, Boop went in the portal and is not coming back.
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Deacon Digest is saying the going rate for a P6 PG is $200-400k and that we made Boop a generous offer so I am thinking we definitely offered on the higher end of that. He probably wanted a lot more than $500k


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Deac@Heart said:
There is something wrong with a society that values a mediocre D1 point guard at $400,000 and a high school teacher with 5 years of experience at $40,000.
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Yes, but look at coaches. Also, you need to move. Teachers near me with five plus years are close to six figures. Still not enough.
 
oldschooldeac said:
Is it crazy that I simultaneously believe that:
1. Pilchard is the most knowledgeable poster on this board. His posts are enjoyable to read and extremely informative. Top 3 poster.
AND
2. All 13 scholarship basketball players could transfer and the Shah facility could burn to the ground and Pilchard would come on here and spin it as an absolute positive for the program.
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Can we make it the Joel that burns down? That would make for a healthy thread discussion.
 
Pilchard said:
Believe Carr is expected to graduate in May. If that is true, there is no portal deadline for him, college grads can transfer whenever they want after they graduate (and before the fall semester starts).
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Can the NCAA really keep non-grads from transferring outside of that time frame?
 
Strattocaster said:
Deacon Digest is saying the going rate for a P6 PG is $200-400k and that we made Boop a generous offer so I am thinking we definitely offered on the higher end of that. He probably wanted a lot more than $500k


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I truly cannot believe I just read this. Let’s just make all D1 teams NBA developmental teams. At least that way you may see some player development and roster continuity. The ncaa has totally ruined my favorite sport and the team I love
 
Strattocaster said:
Deacon Digest is saying the going rate for a P6 PG is $200-400k and that we made Boop a generous offer so I am thinking we definitely offered on the higher end of that. He probably wanted a lot more than $500k


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The thing that's the most upsetting about these numbers is thinking about the guys who didn't make a penny playing pro. Seeing how the value they created is compensated in an open market has got to sting.
 
I’m not going to trot out the silly argument that we couldn’t hire someone else that might be successful at Wake.

But if Wake Forest fired Forbes today, I think he’d have multiple P6 opportunities to choose from within a week or two.

No idea why the team oftentimes shit the bed when it mattered this year, but I’m excited to see what Forbes can put together over the next couple of months.
 
DeacsATS said:
I’m not going to trot out the silly argument that we couldn’t hire someone else that might be successful at Wake.

But if Wake Forest fired Forbes today, I think he’d have multiple P6 opportunities to choose from within a week or two.

No idea why the team oftentimes shit the bed when it mattered this year, but I’m excited to see what Forbes can put together over the next couple of months.
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I would like to see what kind of year Forbes can produce with some semblance of roster continuity. Wake had two (Davien, Mucius), three (Daivien, Cam, Damari) and four (Cam, Damari, Marsh, Carr) returning rotation players in his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seasons, respectively. This year it was effectively Cam and Carr. If Wake can get three starters back and is able to run an eight-man rotation against ACC competition, I think we will see Forbes true coaching ability. Not sure what that is yet, but we will find out.
 
was there a way to fix this issue? Sure, the NCAA should have allowed players to be paid years ago, but employees can be fired and quit whenever one party wants in most states.
 
deacdiggler said:
was there a way to fix this issue? Sure, the NCAA should have allowed players to be paid years ago, but employees can be fired and quit whenever one party wants in most states.
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Wasn’t that the case until recently ? A player could transfer (and sit for one year which was a great rule by the way) or if a player turned out to be a bad actor or just a dud lose the ‘ship and get run off. Am I missing something here. This whole NIL thing and liberal transfer rules sucks and is going to kill programs like ours. Let’s just join the Southern Conf and have at it
 
Deac@Heart said:
There is something wrong with a society that values a mediocre D1 point guard at $400,000 and a high school teacher with 5 years of experience at $40,000.
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I get your point, but there are only 69 P5 schools that are paying these types of sums. So you really have to be a ridiculously good athlete and basketball player to get this kind of money, and you max out at 4 years. I’m guessing that the majority of D1 schools pay less than a teachers salary for a point guard, if they pay anything at all.
 
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