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Why do reasonable people doubt science?

tjcmd said:
Oh, and one more thing. Rob one neighbor to pay for the other neighbor's love copulation.
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Didn't say that we haven't jumped the shark in the process. But that argument is no different than saying that the "scientist" who originally said that vaccines lead to autism discredits the whole of medical research.

You can do better than that logic. That's actually the problem with so many atheists (not sure that you'd classify yourself as that or not, so this isn't directed at you, but in general), they're boring and present some rather dull arguments. Atheism used to be a good intellectual sparring partner for Christianity, not so much anymore.
 
Rev, do you believe that God ordained the government to force money out of people to conduct wars in all corners of the earth and finance all manner of immorality?
 
RevDeac06 said:
Didn't say that we haven't jumped the shark in the process. But that argument is no different than saying that the "scientist" who originally said that vaccines lead to autism discredits the whole of medical research.

You can do better than that logic. That's actually the problem with so many atheists (not sure that you'd classify yourself as that or not, so this isn't directed at you, but in general), they're boring and present some rather dull arguments. Atheism used to be a good intellectual sparring partner for Christianity, not so much anymore.
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There's no more boring answer than "because the Bible says so".
 
tjcmd said:
Rev, do you believe that God ordained the government to force money out of people to conduct wars in all corners of the earth and finance all manner of immorality?
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Of course not. But people can misinterpret and misuse a lot.
 
Junebug said:
Oh, so you're not aware of any other religions (or humanist views, for that matter) that preach love? Interesting; I would have thought a preacher would have been more versed in the culture.

Also, you were not paying very close attention to TW's post. He was saying he is not a believer but he loves his fellow man, and he was asking how to live a religious life. How does it benefit TW to tell him he's already living one?

And, really, you think the reason people are leaving the church in droves is because people like me are making it too complicated? I think the reason is that there are too few in the pulpit who have the guts to say anything anymore.
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I'm plenty versed in the culture and theology, thank you for your concern thought.

Have you ever considered that since God is larger than our words or understanding, that God must also, by default, be larger than our religious concepts of God. I believe that Jesus is the fullest revelation of God, but that doesn't mean other religions/faith systems can't find part of the truth of God- which is why love seems to be such a prevalent component of the world's religions. If God is love, why are we surprised that most people think religion is about love?

Maybe TW is already living the Gospel. Notice that Jesus doesn't say much about what we are to think, but rather what we are to do. Also, the word "believe" in the NT context meant "align yourself with" not "have thoughts about." It benefits TW to tell him that b/c it's actually inviting him to go deeper into what he's already doing, which is a much more compelling argument than "you're missing the point and are a godless heathen."

People leaving the church is because the church doesn't provide a compelling vision for Creation and seems to be more invested in telling others how to live their lives than they do actually being transformed people themselves. So yes, the over-complication of the message is the problem. Re: having guts to say anything- you can talk all you want, I'll love. If God cared about right thought and right speech the Bible would be a lot longer, but it's clear that God cares about right relationship, that's why we have the gift of life- it's a chance to live and love. If it was all about thought, we could just be disembodied spirits, but you're ignoring the biggest piece of evidence we have about God- the world.
 
DistrictDeacon said:
There's no more boring answer than "because the Bible says so".
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Oh, I agree. That's just lazy and ignorant. Perhaps it's a chicken or egg sort of problem- who lowered their intellectual arguments first, that's up for debate, but the debate isn't fruitful any longer. It used to be a conversation where both sides had to rethink their opinions and respected the intellect of each other, but we're lost that, and it's the worlds lost.
 
As is well published on here I'm certainly not a Christian, but I have a really hard time believing that if you live a good, prosperous, and virtuous life and your only "shortcoming" is a failure to accept that Jesus Christ is our holy savior and the son of God that you would be eternally condemned to hell. That certainly seems ridiculously petty from an allegedly benevolent God.

Maybe this is just a layman's critique though.
 
I don't think it's strange at all that our general concepts of ethics coincide exactly with the conception of sin since they're both human inventions.
 
Junebug said:
Sorry if that is too incomprehensible.
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It's Barth, which, by definition, makes it incomprehensible ;)

But you realize that Barth isn't going to change the mind of the atheists/agnostics on this thread, right? Barth (I'm a huge fan) is all about Jesus. In fact, he was once asked "can you sum up all of your work?" and he said "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so." The people on this thread aren't going to buy that foundation, so they're certainly not going to climb up to the roof. That being said, Barth isn't anti-ethics, he's a big proponent of revelation- and the revelation of God in Christ is that we are to love one another. That isn't sin. Sin is defining who is loveable, who is eligible for marriage and who isn't.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
As is well published on here I'm certainly not a Christian, but I have a really hard time believing that if you live a good, prosperous, and virtuous life and your only "shortcoming" is a failure to accept that Jesus Christ is our holy savior and the son of God that you would be eternally condemned to hell. That certainly seems ridiculously petty from an allegedly benevolent God.

Maybe this is just a layman's critique though.
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Nope, you're right. Christianity got off track when it started to focus on the concept of "personal salvation," which is not a concept to be found in the Bible.
 
Junebug said:
Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to think the posters on this board (maybe except for a few notable exceptions, like ONW) are a pretty intelligent lot. Barth has some real insights that totally turn the standard elevator-talk Christianity upside down. In that respect, yes, I do think that theologians like Barth could change the mind of atheists/agnostics, many of whom have just as many pat answers as Christians have pat assertions. If nothing else, these insights make intelligent people really think anew about Christianity, which I percieve is a good thing.
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I can get on board with that- Barth certainly has an intellect that even Richard Dawkins would appreciate (or should).
 
I think it's too bad we've spent so long talking about the problems of religion on these threads instead of the problems with science. People conflate the two far too often, overcorrecting for putting them at odds where they shouldn't be.
 
ONW said:
Mr. Junebug, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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It's a movie quote, but thanks for the neg rep and letting me know I don't have the knowledge to discuss the subject.
 
Junebug said:
I agree that becoming a christian isn't about assent to dogma. As I said, it's about going to church, reflecting on sermons and the bible, loving your neighbor, and developing a consciousness of God.
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Line 1: becoming a christian isn't about assent to dogma
Line 2: here is the dogma you must assent to
 
Junebug said:
Re: your second paragraph--yes, I have considered this possibility. However, my response to TW was about living a decisively Christian religious life, not simply a religious one.

Re: your third paragraph--I agree that becoming a christian isn't about assent to dogma. I said exactly that a few posts back to TW. As I said, it's about going to church, reflecting on sermons and the bible, loving your neighbor, and developing a consciousness of God. Nowhere did I tell TW he was a heathen sinner, nor did I try to force any dogma down his throat. Instead, I pointed out that, from a Christian standpoint, even the effort to do good works can lead to the prison of thinking oneself to be self-sufficient. In my view, that's the type of realization that is necessary to move someone from the realm of the purely ethical to the realm of the Christian.

Re: your fourth paragraph--I respectfully disagree. I think people are leaving the church, and especially the episcopal church, is because the message that is predominantly being preached is no different from the message you can get from a self-help book or a Tony Robbins seminar, and you don't have to sit in a stuffy old church for that.
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Regarding your third point. It still comes off as judgemental and an indictment on my behavior. Maybe that is just my old Christian guilt coming out, though.
 
Junebug said:
Re: your second paragraph--yes, I have considered this possibility. However, my response to TW was about living a decisively Christian religious life, not simply a religious one.

Re: your third paragraph--I agree that becoming a christian isn't about assent to dogma. I said exactly that a few posts back to TW. As I said, it's about going to church, reflecting on sermons and the bible, loving your neighbor, and developing a consciousness of God. Nowhere did I tell TW he was a heathen sinner, nor did I try to force any dogma down his throat. Instead, I pointed out that, from a Christian standpoint, even the effort to do good works can lead to the prison of thinking oneself to be self-sufficient. In my view, that's the type of realization that is necessary to move someone from the realm of the purely ethical to the realm of the Christian.

Re: your fourth paragraph--I respectfully disagree. I think people are leaving the church, and especially the episcopal church, is because the message that is predominantly being preached is no different from the message you can get from a self-help book or a Tony Robbins seminar, and you don't have to sit in a stuffy old church for that.
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1) Love is a decisively Christian life.

2) As others have pointed out, your list is built on dogma. Though, I would agree that there is a difference between good deeds and a profession of faith, but if the profession of faith comes later, it doesn't discredit the good works.

3) I think people are leaving the Episcopal Church (and many non-evangelical denominations) because we're a bit ahead of the curve on embracing what it really means to be a Christian, which is counter-cultural and demanding. Many mega-churches are actually more into the self-help/prosperity gospel, which is cheap grace. People like cheap grace. They don't like truth if it upsets their reality. So, paradoxically, churches that are serious about transformation are losing membership because it requires more of them, not less.
 
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