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Chicago teachers are striking

I think he's saying that teachers for some reason should have less ability than other jobs to negotiate their pay; therefore, they should just do more work for the same pay and be happy about it.

I forgot to add that teachers also want to make sure that they don't have to teach more students for the same pay as well. DeacMan is saying that per hour, per day, per student, teachers should agree to a dramatic pay cut.

They have way more ability than most others to negotiate their pay. They can go on strike. And they get to bargain with the very people to whom their union's endorsement (or lack thereof) matters in political races. Most people aren't in labor unions or, even worse, public sector unions. Most people are free to negotiate their pay at any time. And most people can also be fired at any time without cause.
 
Come on. You know what I'm saying. I get that classroom time doesn't account for all work teachers put in.

I don't know what you're saying.
 
Which is exactly why junebug's belief that early education is some cake-walk is a total farce that he, and people like him, use to rationalize the terrible pay teachers often receive.

In what dream world do you live where $76k average is terrible pay? As I've stated, DAs and PDs where I live start at less than half that amount.
 
In what dream world do you live where $76k average is terrible pay? As I've stated, DAs and PDs where I live start at less than half that amount.

I live in a world in which average salary is different than starting salary, yet supposedly smart people keep comparing them for who knows what reason.
 
I don't know what you're saying.

Me either. Apparently my wife doesn't work as hard as I do. I'll let her know when I get home this afternoon she needs to add a part time job to her schedule. I mean, she's been in the profession for six years now, so SURELY the curriculum hasn't changed, she hasn't had to change her lesson plans, they haven't introduced any new courses in the past half-decade. Nah, I don't suppose any of that has happened. Nope, she just rolls in, ad libs that shit and collects that check. What a bunch of suckers us private sector fools are.

Seriously, dude, pull your foot out of your mouth instead of just trying to swallow the whole thing.
 
I live in a world in which average salary is different than starting salary, yet supposedly smart people keep comparing them for who knows what reason.

You might be surprised to learn that most state employees' salaries really don't increase very much year in and out. We are talking about $1,000 or so a year. I have a friend who has been DA for 10 years who is making just over $50k.
 
The problem in this thread is that people are taking the situation in Chicago to make broad sweeping statements about the public education system as a whole. You can think that education needs to be fixed in this country (and I'm certain there is nobody that thinks the system is perfect) and still be against the teachers in the Chicago situation.
 
Well, after reading all of your posts on this thread, I know a way that all of us could make a lot of money: Buy you what what you are worth and sell you for what you think you are worth.

From you, Bob, taken with the appropriate ocean's worth of salt.
 
I honestly can't believe a thread like this exists. I mean seriously, how is even a single person arguing that we shouldn't strive to have the best teachers available? That doesn't always entail more money, but it should always be the goal and better pay will help.

Now I hope to clarify a few things. First of all, get rid of the dream that "brilliant" scientists will ever be teaching your kids at a high school level or lower. This is really just a pipe dream. As a self-proclaimed member of that group, I choose to teach but it is and always will be at a college level. And that has little to do with pay and more to do with the fact that brilliant scientists want to be SCIENTISTS and to be a researcher you don't work at a high school. Same is true for many disciplines in "education" because teaching at a high school level means you don't get to do the very thing in that field which interests you. I bet PH would agree that he does not have great interest in teaching high school sociology because he enjoys doing research as part of his job (could be wrong). In fact, if you look at my pay history you would see I have consistently turned down money to be in my profession. After 4 years at Wake, 5 years of 70+ hour weeks as a graduate student culminating in a Ph.D. in Pathology, and 3 full years of 70+ hours as a post-doctoral researche I still barely made more than some of the starting teacher salaries being thrown about on this thread. I now make well above that, in the interest of full disclosure, but if money were a motivating factor I would have gone to industry where I'd make more, work less, and have way less stress. Why didn't I? Because I wanted to teach and do independent scientific research. Pointing to increasing pay is an easy way out for our educational crisis but I don't think it is the biggest hurdle we face.

The real problem with teachers, IMO, is that the profession does not receive the respect it deserves. The profession of teaching isn't respected or revered to the same level as many other professions it should be more revered than. The example of lawyers put forth on this thread is perfect. Lawyers serve a purpose in society but if Person A is a lawyer then people view their job, and that person, with more respect than Person B who is a teacher. Same is true for many professions. There is no good reason for that but society dictates it so you naturally have people who may be on the fence about teaching that don't go into because let's face it most people don't want to work for lower pay AND lower respect than they feel they deserve. As an intellectual, I hold all my prior teachers in very high regard because I know I wouldn't be where I am now without their instruction. My intellect is what propels me now but it is the knowledge and skills they taught me which allow me to fully utilize my intellect. The same is true for everybody else in the world and yet teachers still don't get the respect they deserve. The point of all this rambling is that the solution isn't about pay, it is about respect. Part of proper respect is proper compensation but our society does not respect teaching/education the way it should and that is what is killing us now. I am not sure how to fix that but a start is stopping statements like "teachers don't need be super smart, just intelligent enough to teach algebra". For shame
 
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You might be surprised to learn that most state employees' salaries really don't increase very much year in and out. We are talking about $1,000 or so a year. I have a friend who has been DA for 10 years who is making just over $50k.

You might be surprised to learn that people can work for a very long time in the same position and still average does not equal starting. I posted average starting salary of Chicago teachers earlier in this thread.

Is your friend a DA in Chicago or another major urban city? If so, he should talk to his union.
 
Everything I'm reading is saying that the issues still being worked out aren't related to salary, but job security and evaluation metrics.

I was talking with my girlfriend about this yesterday, and we both suspected this might be the case, but we haven't seen anything verifying that. Where have you been reading it?

Our general theory is this is all about pride on both sides. Rahm won't take shit from anyone, and his handling of labor over the past year has made striking more attractive to the CTU than it would have been otherwise. I also saw a quote from a CTU rep that sounded like they were striking in part to show that they still could in the face of recent legislation passed by the city making it more difficult for them to strike.
 
Junebug – concede that teachers work harder than most for less pay; otherwise, you’re fighting a losing battle against emotional, generalized public opinion. From my perspective, this thread got somewhat off track via the typical Democratic/Public Union obfuscations and misdirection, which do a nice job of camouflaging the fact the Chicago teachers want more from the public fisc (which can’t afford it.. they’re bleeding) and less-defined accountabilities. And to get it, they’re using “the kids” as leverage. Very gallant of them – debate that, instead of whether an average compensation of $71k plus benefits (some of which are lifelong) is sufficient for the work teachers do.
 
You're a fucking lawyer, Junebug. A hired gun. You get a lot of people from your profession elected to congress to write a lot of complicated laws so that ordinary people have to pay you a shitload of money to do something that they should be able to do without you. You are just added cost to all business that is transacted in the country. If there was any justice in the world, teachers in Chicago would be making more money than you are making. Their job is much harder...and more important...than yours.

This is also why we talk in latin so much. Jokes on you! Caveat emptor, bitches!
 
You're a fucking lawyer, Junebug. A hired gun. You get a lot of people from your profession elected to congress to write a lot of complicated laws so that ordinary people have to pay you a shitload of money to do something that they should be able to do without you. You are just added cost to all business that is transacted in the country. If there was any justice in the world, teachers in Chicago would be making more money than you are making. Their job is much harder...and more important...than yours.

But they don't. Not even close. And it just eats you up, doesn't it Bob?
 
You're a fucking lawyer, Junebug. A hired gun. You get a lot of people from your profession elected to congress to write a lot of complicated laws so that ordinary people have to pay you a shitload of money to do something that they should be able to do without you. You are just added cost to all business that is transacted in the country. If there was any justice in the world, teachers in Chicago would be making more money than you are making. Their job is much harder...and more important...than yours.

So, are you in favor of tort reform?
 
It depends on what you mean about tort reform. If you mean limit recoveries, I am totally opposed.
 
You're a fucking lawyer, Junebug. A hired gun. You get a lot of people from your profession elected to congress to write a lot of complicated laws so that ordinary people have to pay you a shitload of money to do something that they should be able to do without you. You are just added cost to all business that is transacted in the country. If there was any justice in the world, teachers in Chicago would be making more money than you are making. Their job is much harder...and more important...than yours.

Haha, quite ironic coming from the scum-of-the-earth financial advisor, whose profession makes makes used car salesmen green with envy over the ability to fleece the unknowing general public with hidden fees and pay-for-nothing transaction costs.
 
The percentage of recoveries in medmal hasn't varied much for the past quarter century. Tort limits in medmal equals deaths not lower costs.
 
Haha, quite ironic coming from the scum-of-the-earth financial advisor, whose profession makes makes used car salesmen green with envy over the ability to fleece the unknowing general public with hidden fees and pay-for-nothing transaction costs.

I guess if you can call BKF "scum of the Earth financial advisor, it makes calling you a dog and elementary school girl fucking lawyer fair game.
 
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