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Belief in God, miracles & heaven declines as Darwin's theory of evolution rises

deacz said:
As stated earlier, evolution is a scientific theory like gravity or light. I know of no reasonable scientific argument against it.

If you read and trust the book of Genesis as a historical account of absolute facts with regard to the earth's creation, then I suppose you might not agree with evolution. Otherwise, I don't see the conflict. With two different creation stories likely written by different authors, I don't see a reason to assume it is fact. One can certainly take those writings seriously without believing they are factual.
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Would that everyone share your logic. Sadly, most don't. Literalism has corrupted the Bible and turned Christianity into something it is not. One of my preaching mentors often says "the Bible is a book where you can find direction, not a set of directions."
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Religion has been a valuable tool in the past and for some it continues to be. If that's the case that is perfectly fine. Who am I to tell people what they should believe? At the same time it is my own personal belief that religion as a societal construct in it's current form in 2013 has massively deleterious effects on both the public policy of our nation as well as America in the 21st century.
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Right- but in the defense of Jesus/Christianity, those folks really don't get it. Reading The Future of Faith by Harvey Cox right now, and he's got some great chapters of the imperialization of Christianity. We're still living with the effects of that (and furthering it).
 
RevDeac06 said:
Right- but in the defense of Jesus/Christianity, those folks really don't get it. Reading The Future of Faith by Harvey Cox right now, and he's got some great chapters of the imperialization of Christianity. We're still living with the effects of that (and furthering it).
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I'll have to check it out. Maybe it's a love your Christ, hate your Christians type deal for me.
 
So taking a break (to let things percolate) from sermon prep- figured I'd glance through the previous posts and hop in on the conversation. Not much to add to what I've said in the previous few posts. In the earliest days of "Christianity" (since it wasn't called that), people that followed Jesus were known as followers of "The Way." Faith was about a way of living, not a series of beliefs. But we've turned belief into the litmus test for religiosity, when historically and more accurately, it's been about faith. Karen Armstrong in The Case for God (others have done similar word studies) talks about the way that translating Hebrew ideas into Greek words into the Latin Vulgate, then into English, and throw a Scientific Revolution to change the meanings of words such as "belief" gets us into trouble with misunderstanding the meaning of those words. I guess my point is that Christianity has been corrupted for gains of power/wealth/prestige, but there truly are some people out there who are followers of the Way- and if the world had more of them, I truly believe it would be a better place, and I also think these sorts of conversations would be non-existent because there wouldn't be conflicts about evolution/witchcraft/Creationism.
 
I find the phrase "believe in evolution" a bit odd. I don't see it as a belief; you either know it or don't. I don't think it gets taught well enough at an early enough level. As a fundamental premise underlying all life, it should be emphasized early and often.
 
deacz said:
As stated earlier, evolution is a scientific theory like gravity or light. I know of no reasonable scientific argument against it.

If you read and trust the book of Genesis as a historical account of absolute facts with regard to the earth's creation, then I suppose you might not agree with evolution.
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Actually...the rough account of creation in Genesis mirrors with what we roughly think happened from science. It's sort of eerie to me.

Evolution is a theory, but it's certainly not the most tested scientific theory as someone suggested, and there are huge gaps. Time estimates don't exactly work out and the recent much older skeleton finding makes the time even shorter given the other fossil record. Either there are missing drivers (which to date have been assumed and never proven) or something else happened. The reasonable theory that is out there that could augment evolution is alien intervention. One has to believe in aliens but a lot of reasonable people believe in the likelihood of aliens and advanced technology....10 billion years to develop both before earth was even created.
 
pourdeac said:
Actually...the rough account of creation in Genesis mirrors with what we roughly think happened from science. It's sort of eerie to me.

Evolution is a theory, but it's certainly not the most tested scientific theory as someone suggested, and there are huge gaps. Time estimates don't exactly work out and the recent much older skeleton finding makes the time even shorter given the other fossil record. Either there are missing drivers (which to date have been assumed and never proven) or something else happened. The reasonable theory that is out there that could augment evolution is alien intervention. One has to believe in aliens but a lot of reasonable people believe in the likelihood of aliens and advanced technology....10 billion years to develop both before earth was even created.
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I think you are confusing evolution (as a process that we can (and do) replicate in a day) which I would wholeheartedly agree with whoever said it's one of the most tested theories in science and the evolution of humans. Definitely related ideas but the theory of evolution doesn't rely on the fossil record/time gaps.
 
As a woman of science it always kills me to read these reports and know that many of these people who don't "believe"(I hate using that word to refer to scientific theory) are actually rational, logical people like my Dad just not when it comes to this one thing.
 
pourdeac said:
Actually...the rough account of creation in Genesis mirrors with what we roughly think happened from science. It's sort of eerie to me.

Evolution is a theory, but it's certainly not the most tested scientific theory as someone suggested, and there are huge gaps. Time estimates don't exactly work out and the recent much older skeleton finding makes the time even shorter given the other fossil record. Either there are missing drivers (which to date have been assumed and never proven) or something else happened. The reasonable theory that is out there that could augment evolution is alien intervention. One has to believe in aliens but a lot of reasonable people believe in the likelihood of aliens and advanced technology....10 billion years to develop both before earth was even created.
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This post reads like it was taken directly from ICRs website.

Which is the most tested theory?
 
TWDeac said:
This post reads like it was taken directly from ICRs website.

Which is the most tested theory?
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Ugh, thanks for that. I didn't know what ICR was, so I googled it. I really, really didn't need to know that there is that level of stupid out there, and that people give money to support it.
 
RevDeac06 said:
Ugh, thanks for that. I didn't know what ICR was, so I googled it. I really, really didn't need to know that there is that level of stupid out there, and that people give money to support it.
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Come to Cincinnati some time and I'll take you to the Creation Museum. It gets worse.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Yeah I'm not against religion

it is my own personal belief that religion as a societal construct in it's current form in 2013 has massively deleterious effects on both the public policy of our nation as well as America at large in the 21st century.
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That doesn't make a lot of sense.

A lot of what you are reacting to is the way things are presented...as either/or...and the way things have been discussed in the culture in general. The issue has been used politically to "prove" stupidity of conservatives vs the "enlightened" liberal so there is a lot of push back on this issue. I disagree with your stem cell comment. Stem cell science was absolutely driven forward dramatically after limiting embryonic SC use. Applying morals, which scientists do all the time, didn't slow progress, it sped it up.

The way I look at this issue....belief in God was probably required for our evolution and if true, it's there for a purpose, not some sort of crutch for the weak. IMO it could be we had to take a leap of faith to trust our senses and have consciousness. Belief/faith in something larger may make us more human than those that don't because it makes them more aware of their surroundings...true belief not just church goers. That would dovetail with eastern thoughts on spirituality. It's becoming more apparent that belief/faith can also have a very positive effect on the mind and even induce self-healing for those that truly believe. I would not write it off so glibly as something weak people do vs the rational scientist. Science is starting to uncover a role.

So for me.....it's ironic when evolution zealots attack belief in God..because it was probably required for the evolution they believe in. It's also sort of ironic to me when creation zealots to attack evolution...because IMO belief in God was a huge part of attaining consciousness during the process of evolution.
 
Can you explain why you think belief in god was necessary for our evolution? That is a really strong statement.
 
pourdeac said:
So for me.....it's ironic when evolution zealots attack belief in God..because it was probably required for the evolution they believe in. It's also sort of ironic to me when creation zealots to attack evolution...because IMO belief in God was a huge part of attaining consciousness during the process of evolution.
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You do realize that this argument completely undermines any truth claims out there about religion or a deity? Sort of pulls the rug out from the concept of revelation.
 
So if TW and I both think an argument seems a bit off, there's probably something afoul.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Thank goodness. A big step towards continuing our own social evolution.

I have two litmus tests for people: are you pro-gay rights and do you believe in evolution?
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Where is "what are your thoughts on using Pythagorean expectation to determine the quality of a basketball team?"
 
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