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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

The giant elephant in the room though is that conservatives have fought tooth and nail to make sure that preteens, teens, and young adults are not given comprehensive sex education at the time in their lives where it is most needed. At the same time, conservatives are fighting to restrict access to sexual health centers and literally went to the Supreme Court to make it so giving women birth control through health insurance wasn’t a guarantee. So you can cite all the questionable early 2000’s statistics you want, but unless and until young Americans are taught proper sex education and given the resources to practice safe sex, your blaming those that get pregnant feels rather empty.

I'm thinking he believes that the only thing kids need to be taught is to remain chaste until they are ready to deal with the product of their sexual relations, a baby. Sounds really simple, but like a lot of conservative ideas there is no real-world evidence that such an approach has ever or will ever stop people from fucking and in turn unwanted pregnancies. But it sure must be a convenient position to have, and then be all incredulous for the rest of the discussion.
 
Elective abortion (and access to this) is a pretty complex consideration. I tend to oppose any simplistic declaration.

Being for minimizing the perceived need for such seems the best strategy to me. Employ any reasonable strategy to help folks not wanting a baby to avoid undesired conception.

Still, even if we collectively did this the best we could, some folks will find themselves (or their partner) unintentionally and undesirably pregnant.

So what to do?

Some things seem clear, I think.

1. Of course human life begins at conception. That's basic biology.

2. Elective abortion clearly ends a human life that would have (in the vast majority of cases) gone on to develop into a baby, child, and so forth.

3. All human life is not equally valued or valuable (worth the effort to protect/preserve/maintain/sustain). Never has been, never will be (anticipated protestations acknowledged but not believed to be persuasive). The only question is whose valuation matters most? And what protections do we encode into our laws?

One question is how do we as a society define a "person"? Meaning a human with rights. Such as to life, etc. Yes this diverging of an always more narrowly defined "person" from "human" clearly opens (intentionally) the way to a denial of certain rights for humans not judged to have legal standing as a "person". If this seems contorted, it makes more sense, to me, than attempting to pretend that all humans are not really humans. Better to just make up the category of "natural person". With respect to elective abortion, societies that permit this more highly value the rights of the pregnant woman than that of the developing human she carries. They tend to see her as a "person" with rights and not so (or much less so) the embryo or fetus.

Anyhow, for a long time I've felt being "anti-abortion" was probably about the only remaining issue with which I (mostly) side with "conservatives". It's weird, however, and does seem highly hypocritical that those opposed to legal access to elective abortions seem (generally) otherwise hell bent on not caring collectively (via governance) for either pregnant women, poor children, and born humans (generally).

Likewise, it seems weird to me that "liberals" (and progressives) favor all sorts of programs designed to help the vulnerable but seem to often breezily dismiss any concerns about the very vulnerable (to elective abortion) developing humans in utero.

Of course it boils down to whose (and what) rights are we prioritizing.

I certainly think in modern times we should be able to find a way to collectively support moms and children and families such that the "inconvenience" of an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy could be minimized. But, again, look who demurs from and disparages such efforts and nearly every turn--"pro life" (cough) folks.

And yes, for me, the "solution" of elective abortion, the intentional ending of an inconvenient human life, indeed raises concerns over the potential to spill over into collective devaluing of other inconvenient human lives.

The issue has been such a galvanizing force for conservative Christians (and thus Republicans who decided decades ago to cater to them) that it's really a singularly determinative consideration for many Republicans.

But for myself, I decided some time ago that Republicans are so far gone down a pathway characterized by dishonest, dishonorable, and destructive power (and fear) mongering that there are just too many more important and relevant issues relating to how we treat born humans, with Republicans essentially uniformly on the wrong side of these, that I can no longer support Republicans (generally).

Sigh.


[sorry to post this probably barely coherent screed and go away but I have to for a while.]
 
Does anyone really think that repealing Roe v. Wade or even a nationwide abortion ban will actually stop abortions?
It might reduce the rate some, but people will still get abortions.
Middle class and wealthy women, or wealthy men who impregnate their mistresses, will have the resources to get safe abortions and will do so.
Poor women will die from botched self-abortion attempts or from bad doctors.
The fetuses are still going to die, and in significant numbers. There will just be a whole lot more human misery to go along with it.

This is very much worth reading. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/the-things-we-cant-face/600769/

It won’t even go as extreme as before, you can have an abortion using a pill. Despite what conservatives try to throw out there about infants being slaughtered, 65% of abortions are before 8 weeks and 30% of all abortions right now are non-surgical. That number would jump significantly and pills would flow across the borders, so yeah probably want to try to stop the reasons for abortion than abortions themselves if you truly believe what you believe.
 
Connor, that’s a really good post. I disagree with your characterization of how “clear” your top line points are, specifically points 1 & 2, but I appreciate your perspective and good faith arguments.
 
The correct answer to lowering abortion rates and suffering to all involved is an extremely robust combination of:
sexual education,
birth control accessibility,
massively-funded adoption system
de-stigmatization of childbirth out of wedlock
massively funded childcare system
income equality economic engineering

The churches need to get off their high horses and fund some of this shit instead of spending their money on megachurches and missionary trips to save souls in foreign lands. Or be taxed to fund it, since they are the owners of the politicians who oppose it.
 
The correct answer to lowering abortion rates and suffering to all involved is an extremely robust combination of:
sexual education,
birth control accessibility,
massively-funded adoption system
de-stigmatization of childbirth out of wedlock
massively funded childcare system
income equality economic engineering

The churches need to get off their high horses and fund some of this shit instead of spending their money on megachurches and missionary trips to save souls in foreign lands. Or be taxed to fund it, since they are the owners of the politicians who oppose it.

^All of this. It's hard to argue you care about children when you don't support aid and funding for the mother and child once the baby is born, or support cutting back on existing programs. Just having churches and pro-life groups supporting practical sex ed programs instead of fighting them tooth and nail and supporting "abstinence-only" stuff instead would be a huge help.
 
The correct answer to lowering abortion rates and suffering to all involved is an extremely robust combination of:
sexual education,
birth control accessibility,
massively-funded adoption system
de-stigmatization of childbirth out of wedlock
massively funded childcare system
income equality economic engineering

The churches need to get off their high horses and fund some of this shit instead of spending their money on megachurches and missionary trips to save souls in foreign lands. Or be taxed to fund it, since they are the owners of the politicians who oppose it.

Great post, WnB. The people who demonize abortion are the same ones who claim all you have to do is graduate from high school and not have a kid before marriage to be successful.
 
The correct answer to lowering abortion rates and suffering to all involved is an extremely robust combination of:
sexual education,
birth control accessibility,
massively-funded adoption system
de-stigmatization of childbirth out of wedlock
massively funded childcare system
income equality economic engineering

The churches need to get off their high horses and fund some of this shit instead of spending their money on megachurches and missionary trips to save souls in foreign lands. Or be taxed to fund it, since they are the owners of the politicians who oppose it.


Pretty much.
 
Abortion: When will we as a country wake up to the truth?

1/3 of pregnancies in NY state end in abortion. If people aren’t looking for abortion to bail them out of taking care of a kid then they probably need to adjust strategies.

105k abortions in 2017 in NY State
230k live births/miscarriages

Pro choice don’t want to deal with facts because the reality is abortion has now become a more complicated form of birth control. A bailout lever if people’s reckless decisions end up by created an unwanted human life.

It's easier to deal with facts when you provide a link.

State data is problematic because women often have to cross state borders to get an abortion.
 
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It's easier to deal with facts when you provide a link.

Wrangor, the Guggenheim whatever or german sounding institute I alluded to in my previous post was the one you’re referring to. Yes their stats are from years ago and that is your single source, no? Any other sources for your 90% claim and the ones Ph is asking for?

Regardless do you think there is a government solution to this other than outlawing it which clearly would be a massive problem because the unborn would continue to get aborted and then maternal mortality rates would exacerbate? Conservatives seem to not offer any solutions to lowering abortion rates and only offer the sensational “infanticide” argument instead of thinking of solutions that would help encourage less abortions. Or do conservatives not want a government solution? Seems as though churches and non profits offering to help would only place a band aid on the issue. What WnB said seems to be spot on. It’s a tough issue to reconcile, no doubt.
 
As hot and crowded as the planet is, we should probably be encouraging more abortions though, right ?
 
Sex education: completely agree but probably not how you think. Reorientation would probably be a better word.

Birth control accessibility: people say this as though there aren’t a million condoms within a square mile from any of us at any time and they cost less than a dollar to buy. How much sex can you possibly have that a condom is cost prohibitive? Are you having unprotected sex in an uncommitted/non married relationship more than once a day? This is the dumbest argument of all the dumb arguments and is way overestimated how much sex anyone not names Wilt Chamberlain is having.

Funded adoption system: agree. Way too expensive to adopt right now and way too difficult.

Destigmatize childbirth out of wedlock: wrong direction here. We don’t need to condescend, but instead we should be elevating committed marriages as the foundation for healthy sex. That way when the ‘ohshit’ moment occurs and an accidental pregnancy happens, the couple is committed and able to raise the child.

Massively funded childcare system: the state going to take care of our children now? Again - wrong direction. Elevate responsibility of parents and provide tools but we don’t need to be a nanny state to do that.

Income inequality engineering: basically be a socialist or your opinion doesn’t matter. It will never work and a good society will crumble when the wealth leaves. A red herring to the argument.

So you make three strawmen arguments related to birth control accessibility, childcare, and income inequality, you break out the tried and true "family values" argument for non-married pregnancies, but at least you agree that the adoption system sucks and needs to be overhauled so bully for you.
 
Reorientation?

Only people in hetero marriages should be having sex?

Anyone else get the feeling wrangor believes the gay can be prayed away?
 
Is "Elevate responsibility of parents" code for women shouldn't work?
 
Sex education: completely agree but probably not how you think. Reorientation would probably be a better word.

Birth control accessibility: people say this as though there aren’t a million condoms within a square mile from any of us at any time and they cost less than a dollar to buy. How much sex can you possibly have that a condom is cost prohibitive? Are you having unprotected sex in an uncommitted/non married relationship more than once a day? This is the dumbest argument of all the dumb arguments and is way overestimated how much sex anyone not names Wilt Chamberlain is having.

Birth control is far more than just condoms.

Funded adoption system: agree. Way too expensive to adopt right now and way too difficult.

Destigmatize childbirth out of wedlock: wrong direction here. We don’t need to condescend, but instead we should be elevating committed marriages as the foundation for healthy sex. That way when the ‘ohshit’ moment occurs and an accidental pregnancy happens, the couple is committed and able to raise the child.

This is preposterous. Under your premise, all teems who get pregnant must marry each regardless of their being ready or able to support a family. Secondly, you want adults who have no business being married must marry. What if they don't marry? What should happen?

Massively funded childcare system: the state going to take care of our children now? Again - wrong direction. Elevate responsibility of parents and provide tools but we don’t need to be a nanny state to do that.

Millions of families need two paychecks just to put a roof over their heads and food on the table. Each of your positions is punitive and will negatively impact the child.

Income inequality engineering: basically be a socialist or your opinion doesn’t matter. It will never work and a good society will crumble when the wealth leaves. A red herring to the argument.
 
Sex education: completely agree but probably not how you think. Reorientation would probably be a better word.

Birth control accessibility: people say this as though there aren’t a million condoms within a square mile from any of us at any time and they cost less than a dollar to buy. How much sex can you possibly have that a condom is cost prohibitive? Are you having unprotected sex in an uncommitted/non married relationship more than once a day? This is the dumbest argument of all the dumb arguments and is way overestimated how much sex anyone not names Wilt Chamberlain is having.

Funded adoption system: agree. Way too expensive to adopt right now and way too difficult.

Destigmatize childbirth out of wedlock: wrong direction here. We don’t need to condescend, but instead we should be elevating committed marriages as the foundation for healthy sex. That way when the ‘ohshit’ moment occurs and an accidental pregnancy happens, the couple is committed and able to raise the child.

Massively funded childcare system: the state going to take care of our children now? Again - wrong direction. Elevate responsibility of parents and provide tools but we don’t need to be a nanny state to do that.

Income inequality engineering: basically be a socialist or your opinion doesn’t matter. It will never work and a good society will crumble when the wealth leaves. A red herring to the argument.

You clearly have a larger agenda than saving lives.
 
Wrangor is appalled by the murder of little babies, but doesn’t want to spend too much money on saving their lives.
 
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