Should Manning be canned at the end of the season?

warak said:

people here are insane.

there was not one (known quantity) good coach that would even answer the phone for Wellman when Manning was hired. i mean you guys put up a fucking billboard to get Bzz fired...i whole heartedly agree about the Bzz firing but the billboard was some chump ass shit, imo. a revolting, small and absent from games alumni...I am actually surprised we got a Manning, who appeared to have potential.

I am still Manning wait and see, but more because i feel we have to. he is here for at least two years imo, and i am hopeful he can improve. glass half-full, maybe, but i can't stand ignoring the seasons like i did with Bzz. not again.

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Assuming that's even true, I'd chalk it up more to Wellman than to some dumb fucking billboards. Even an imbecile (and likely Buzz himself) could see that Buzz was a bad hire and should've been fired before he actually was.

I was definitely excited at the Manning hire as he is a legend and anything besides [redacted] was cause for celebration. Would be great if I'm wrong and he succeeds, but so far the best one can say is that Manning is a likeable person, recruits well and has proven he can put together a fringe NCAA tourney team with a transcendent offensive talent surrounded by plus shooters. Who knows, perhaps we will have something similar next year, but I don't understand why folks expect things to magically click next year when his teams have never played defense and it's unlikely that any of our recruits will be the most dominant offensive player in the country next year.

That said, if the team wins as an offensive juggernaut or better yet wins by playing well on both sides of the ball (top five in ACC) next year then I'll be happy. If not I'd take a look at top assistants at Gonzaga, Mich. State, maybe Wichita St, whomever is coaching at New Mexico St (top 10 defense!), Chris Beard (can't hurt), Dan Hurley (If you can't beat 'em...),etc. -basically either top assistants at top programs that have sustained success (minus known dirty reps ie Caple at Duke) or head coaches at mid-majors or lesser power conference schools that have an established track record of success over multiple seasons. This doesn't seem complicated, though it is obviously by no means a guarantor of success. Prosser is the only recent hire to fit this mold (though I'd put a higher premium on defense in my hypothetical coaching search) so I don't expect Wellman to get it right, obviously.

buckets said:

there's a tad bit more to Manning's resume than Tulsa

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warak said:

i agree. you seem to forget that he was also on the Kansas bench for a number of years, making a lot of heads turn with his big man coaching. You can also add his playing experience. there was enough to be interested in Manning.

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What, did he ingest Bill Self's sperm and inherit his coaching acumen? Being a benchwarmer for a coach really doesn't mean much. There are plenty of assistants who haven't amounted to much.

His big man development at KU is overstated. It's not like KU was recruiting scrubs who couldn't play center. KU was recruiting 4 and 5 star kids and surrounding them with other 4 and 5 star kids.

RChildress107 said:

Actual data that indicates he can’t coach his way out of a paper bag. The data I’ve seen suggests that other than this season his teams have met or exceeded expectations based on the talent they have had on paper. And this team has only slightly underperformed.

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You act like exceeding expectations for his teams vs the talent they have on paper is some kind of good metric for DM. He is DIRECTLY responsible for the talent that we have. If the talent is not up to par then that is on him! If he is "such a good recruiter" and has been exceeding that talent then why have we seen the results that we have gotten.

The biggest problem I have with DM is that there are no consequences for kids ignoring his coaching. Crawford needs to be reigned in. 7 for 17 us terrible. He shoots to much, he turns the ball over to much and he plays hero ball instead of team ball. The coach needs to get him to play within himself and play team ball. Manning has done nothing to improve BC this year.

warak said:

people here are insane.

there was not one (known quantity) good coach that would even answer the phone for Wellman when Manning was hired. i mean you guys put up a fucking billboard to get Bzz fired...i whole heartedly agree about the Bzz firing but the billboard was some chump ass shit, imo. a revolting, small and absent from games alumni...I am actually surprised we got a Manning, who appeared to have potential.

I am still Manning wait and see, but more because i feel we have to. he is here for at least two years imo, and i am hopeful he can improve. glass half-full, maybe, but i can't stand ignoring the seasons like i did with Bzz. not again.

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You're GD right.

buckets said:

I'm also Manning wait and see. I think he will be a good coach.

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Why do some keep pretending like Manning is in his late 20's and just getting started? An entire career spent playing the game, and then 15 years as a coach, 6 as a head coach, 4 at Wake with a team full of his players...at what point in the future will he finally be a good coach? What are we waiting to see exactly? Is he magically going to figure it all out as he approaches the end of his second decade as a coach? :rofl:

And here comes the "Wake fans ran [name redacted] out of town and that's the reason we couldn't hire a good coach" argument from the OWG's.

EatLeadCommie said:

Manning was not a good hire. He was a very meh hire who was riding the wave of winning a shitty conference that it just lost its premier programs. Manning's first year at Tulsa, CUSA had Memphis, SMU, UCF, and Houston. His second and last year there, those schools had been replaced by UTSA, LaTech, FIU, UNT, and ODU. The conference overall sucked so bad that newbie LaTech came in and won the regular season title, then Manning got hot with Tulsa and won the conference tourney. Buzz could've won that shitty conference. But oooh, conference title and all that and Wellman apparently couldn't lure anybody so we got stuck with Manning and Florida got Mike White.

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So Manning Conference USA title = no good because of crappy conference.
Mike White regular season CUSA title = good?

It is easy to zero in on the offense, but the reality all season & Manning's entire tenure is that Wake can't guard for shit. Scoring 81 points means you win, but for Wake it rarely does. Somehow Manning was able to get his last Tulsa team to play defense to be in KP's top 60, but can't sniff that so far at Wake.

Wake in ACC only games so far in 4 years have finished 13, 14, 10, & currently 11th in Defensive efficiency. You would think that would be enough to scrap the entire defensive scheme & start from scratch. The system does not work.
I would never compare DM to Tony Bennett, but his players change like everyone else & his scheme is always effective. In the same 4 years his team has finished 1, 2, 1, & now 1 in the same category.
Louisville has a completely different scheme than Virginia, but in the 4 years have finished 2, 1, 3, and now 4. They have also changed players & coaches, but have a plan that works.
Can our staff just study tapes & try to implement something that may work? Why stick to a plan that consistently fails?

RChildress107 said:

Actual data that indicates he can’t coach his way out of a paper bag. The data I’ve seen suggests that other than this season his teams have met or exceeded expectations based on the talent they have had on paper. And this team has only slightly underperformed.

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Are you shitting me? Did going 2-16 in the ACC 2 years ago meet your expectations?

buckets said:

Who do you idiots think wellman realistically should have hired instead of Manning?

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Wellman thought he had hired Shaka Smart until Hatch screwed us.

daaberry said:

It is easy to zero in on the offense, but the reality all season & Manning's entire tenure is that Wake can't guard for shit. Scoring 81 points means you win, but for Wake it rarely does. Somehow Manning was able to get his last Tulsa team to play defense to be in KP's top 60, but can't sniff that so far at Wake.

Wake in ACC only games so far in 4 years have finished 13, 14, 10, & currently 11th in Defensive efficiency. You would think that would be enough to scrap the entire defensive scheme & start from scratch. The system does not work.
I would never compare DM to Tony Bennett, but his players change like everyone else & his scheme is always effective. In the same 4 years his team has finished 1, 2, 1, & now 1 in the same category.
Louisville has a completely different scheme than Virginia, but in the 4 years have finished 2, 1, 3, and now 4. They have also changed players & coaches, but have a plan that works.
Can our staff just study tapes & try to implement something that may work? Why stick to a plan that consistently fails?

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What a novel idea! Develop a defensive identity as a HC.

Also, what a breath of fresh air it would be to start the offense with anything other than one of our 7 footers setting a ball screen 6 feet behind the 3 point line! It's almost as if we're unaware that moving without the ball, setting off-ball screens, feeding someone with low post position, etc, are all very good ways to run an effective offense.

RacerDeac said:

And here comes the "Wake fans ran [name redacted] out of town and that's the reason we couldn't hire a good coach" argument from the OWG's.

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No, no one is saying that. The billboard was some weak ass BS and can actively be used as a negative recruiting tool from other coaches. In this case, it probably didn't help our coaching search.

No one on an anonymous message board ran bzzz out of town. People that pull the strings ran him out of town.

CreamyGoodness said:

No, no one is saying that. The billboard was some weak ass BS and can actively be used as a negative recruiting tool from other coaches. In this case, it probably didn't help our coaching search.

No one on an anonymous message board ran bzzz out of town. People that pull the strings ran him out of town.

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It's quite simple. If any coach were "intimidated" by the billboard, he/she was not fit to be considered for the job in the first place.

CreamyGoodness said:

No one on an anonymous message board ran bzzz out of town. People that pull the strings ran him out of town.

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The same people who have shared with you, and only you, the dark and dirty secrets of Dino? The Wake Forest illuminati strike again!!

deacfan123 said:

You act like exceeding expectations for his teams vs the talent they have on paper is some kind of good metric for DM. He is DIRECTLY responsible for the talent that we have. If the talent is not up to par then that is on him! If he is "such a good recruiter" and has been exceeding that talent then why have we seen the results that we have gotten.

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1. It takes several years to completely upgrade the talent on the roster. The talent Manning inherited was worse than any team [Redacted] had. Outside the 2012 class [Redacted] brought in nothing and much of that class left when he did.

2. The results last year were reflective of Manning’s recruiting. We were a top 40 team for the first time this decade.

3. The results this year are reflective of unexpected departures of talent Manning recruited plus a dud in 2016. He’s absolutely responsible for that.


I know having perspective in the midst of a frustrating season can be hard, but it actually makes things better.

TBDeac said:

So Manning Conference USA title = no good because of crappy conference.
Mike White regular season CUSA title = good?

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If you had to pick between the two at the time, White was the better pick (assuming he had any interest). Much younger, better coaching record, and yes, winning the CUSA reg season AFTER COMING FROM THE WAC was considerably more impressive than winning the conf tourney after being a mainstay in the conference for years. It's much different winning with kids you recruited to play against Memphis and old SWC teams than it is winning with kids you recruited to conquer Nevada. Furthermore, the WAC was much in the same state as CUSA was the year before CUSA lost all its prestige. White proceeded to win the gutted WAC (not a tough accomplishment, even though he flamed out in the conference tourney), parlayed that into a bid to upgrade his program into CUSA, and then won the CUSA. Danny? Well, Danny was from Greensboro once.

In the end, none of this really matters since we got stuck with DM and MW has the superior coaching gig. But DM wasn't a good hire then or now. He was a lackluster hire, and that was the general consensus at the time. He has proven to be-- at best-- a lackluster coach.

cheeseheads12 said:

Are you shitting me? Did going 2-16 in the ACC 2 years ago meet your expectations?

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I had zero expectations for Manning’s first two years because I understood just how much [Redacted] had destroyed the program. Manning exceeded expectations last year and is not meeting them so far this year. If he doesn’t meet them next year (NCAA tourney at a minimum) he should be fired.