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Democrats : 3 Rungs Lower Than Whale Shit

ITT, I learned that no one can ever say anything is a human right because it is too similar to saying something else is a right.
 
PhDeac said:
Your wording is correct. That's what makes right now a huge moment for progressive and/or socialist politics. People are ready for an alternative. The question is are they ready for a specific alternative and will that support weather the storm of BS Republicans will throw at it.

"Healthcare is a right" just isn't enough. It's an empty platitude. It's poor messaging. Plus it mirrors the same arguments gun nuts make. You don't want to unconsciously treat healthcare the same as gun ownership.

MDMH, stop being ridiculous. You're writing off people based social class stereotypes even while making a reasonable argument why they could get behind socialism. Their lives won't change much. So why wouldn't they be in the movement if you can convince them they can help tens to hundreds of millions of their fellow Americans.
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PhDeac said:
Your central argument is "healthcare is a human right."

The gun nuts' central argument is "gun ownership is a right."

If being "a right" is sufficient enough for some form of universal health care then "a right" is even more sufficient for unrestricted gun ownership because it's codified in the Constitution. You've got to go beyond that.

Also if your argument is for a specific delivery of healthcare, that goes beyond just "healthcare is a right."
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Not to engage in too much pedantry, but I think that the central argument from both DSA folks and gun nuts is not a matter of human rights, but of civil (or even welfare rights). That strikes me as a meaningful distinction. There is a difference between housing is a human right and a social right to housing, for example.

MHB, mdmh, Ph, etc. - let me know if this adequately represents the arguments.
 
PhDeac said:
Also if your argument is for a specific delivery of healthcare, that goes beyond just "healthcare is a right."
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AFAIK DSA is not consumed with debate between single-payer and single-provider camps

ConnorEl said:
Umm...is it OK to be "for" decent universal health care, livable minimum wage, effective social safety nets, reasonable equality of opportunity, GOOD education available to all, etc. and not be a "socialist".

Hope so.
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These positions, as I understand them, are usually the province of social democrats (who are a species of socialist imho)

MHBDemon said:
ITT, I learned that no one can ever say anything is a human right because it is too similar to saying something else is a right.
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They're not even understood as the same sort of right! No* gun nut believes in a positive liberty view of gun ownership









*I will not be held responsible if in fact some gun nuts do take a positive liberty view on the matter
 
Anything beats Dems’ “access to affordable healthcare” bullshit.
 
"access to affordable healthcare" is not a bullshit idea.


And it's better than the status quo. Presently there is much that is needed and not accessible or affordable wrt health care.
 
ConnorEl said:
"access to affordable healthcare" is not a bullshit idea.


And it's better than the status quo. Presently there is much that is needed and not accessible or affordable wrt health care.
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In and of itself, it’s not a bad idea. The messaging is bad when you see people that don’t support universal healthcare, like Claire, campaign on something that really just means “i don’t know how to make healthcare more affordable while protecting corporate interests” so I’ll just pretend that i care.
 
Sharice Davids actually sent a fundraising email titled “healthcare is a human right” but she doesn’t support Medicare for All. Regardless of what you think about shitty neoliberals, politicians shouldn’t intentionally use language like that and not be called out on it.
 
MHBDemon said:
Sharice Davids actually sent a fundraising email titled “healthcare is a human right” but she doesn’t support Medicare for All. Regardless of what you think about shitty neoliberals, politicians shouldn’t intentionally use language like that and not be called out on it.
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Because you can believe healthcare is a human right and not support Medicare for All as a way to make sure people have that right.
 
LOL. The Emmys included John McCain in their In Memoriam. I'll just leave that here for shits and giggles.
 
PhDeac said:
Because you can believe healthcare is a human right and not support Medicare for All as a way to make sure people have that right.
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Are you making an argument on the best way to deliver free healthcare? Or you don’t believe healthcare should be free?
 
MHBDemon said:
Are you making an argument on the best way to deliver free healthcare? Or you don’t believe healthcare should be free?
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How on earth do you get that from my post? I didn't say anything close to that.
 
Jesus dude, I’m asking you to clarify so that i don’t get accused of something I just got accused of. So let’s try this again, how does one believe that healthcare is a human right and also not believe in [insert method of delivering free healthcare]?
 
A "right" isn't necessary free.
 
Many countries have Universal Health Care that don't have single-payer. And that's what I think the us will end up with.
 
Most likely.

Even if we have “single payer” it likely will filter through private insurers, or insurance-type organizations.

Our politics is so broken, however. It’s tough to see anything substantial happening unless we can keep Pubs out of power for a while. Recent history suggests they are malignantly opposed to compelling people to be insured, to making insurance more comprehensive, etc. So any gains Dems might make seem always at risk of being dishonestly maligned and undone when Pubs cycle back into power.


So, I guess, we have to hope (and work) for a period of sustained Dem control...maybe?
 
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