Reasonable discussion on illegal immigration

I know this is probably a fool's errand, but I would love to have a formative and balanced discussion on our immigration policies that don't demonize opposing positions. I don't know how many of you subscribe to the Wall Street Journal, but there is an excellent article discussing the issue, in particularly observing the rising number of family arrests, and families seeking asylum as opposed to single males jumping the fence. The article did a good job of not taking an opinion, but merely observing the facts and statistics and reporting on them. I would copy it, but it is behind a paywall.

My opinion on this subject doesn't really fit into either party's platform, because I believe both sides of our current system are extremely flawed. We need an airtight border. I don't think that looks like a wall, but we have to figure out a way to stop the inflow of illegal immigrants. At the same time, or possibly even prior to a strong border, we must streamline our legal immigration process. It is far too difficult to come to the States to work, and far too difficult for productive immigrants to become citizens. To be honest, I feel immigration will be a weather vane for the two parties over the next 20 years. Neither party has made a serious attempt to fix the issue. Both are using the issue as a wedge to drive votes. Democrats are playing on naive sympathies and demonizing the right, and Republicans are playing on unrealistic fear and demonizing the immigrant. In both scenarios there is truth to be found in the accusations, but in both scenarios there is a mountain of falsehood.

Does anyone on these boards work in this field, domain? Whenever this conversation comes up with conservative friends of mine, I always make the claim that the Republican party is shooting themselves in the foot with their immigration policy. Our illegal immigrants on the southern border are dying to vote conservative if the Republican party would just get out of the way. They are a deeply religious, familial, bootstraps culture who value work (this is a massive generalization, but there is a reason that illegal immigrants primarily find work in construction, janitorial, and agriculture. Obviously employees are easier to 'hide' in these fields, but it is also difficult work that citizens often don't want to do). In my opinion a streamlined immigration party that emphasizes legal immigration, and makes it easier to legally come to the States would not only be good for the USA, but great for the Republican party if and when some of these immigrants became citizens.

I have recently become friends with a couple who is here from India, they are on a work visa, and the company they are working for is helping them gain their citizenship. It has been fascinating to discuss American immigration policy with them. The most startling enlightenment for me is just how much they appreciate the USA, and even our immigration policy. They are just happy to be here, and the husband is an EXTREMELY smart electrical engineer for a local manufacturing company (that part isn't surprising, just mentioning it to state that this couple on a macro scale is a huge net positive for our country). I think I expected some condescension towards Trump, or his rhetoric, but pretty much, Elvin and Rince (my two friends) have an appreciation and understanding for why Trump is pulling the reins. Again - this does not fit the narrative that most Republicans would spout even for immigrants coming legally to seek employment and a better life.

I would love to learn more about specific policies that are in place that aren't helpful and try to maintain a civil discourse that isn't overly politicized. Any chance we could pull that off and have ONE good thread on this boards that is informative rather than a pissing contest? Will we ever be able to revert back to a gentler, kinder, informative boards? Or are we stuck in troll-ville forever?

Trump and Republicans make illegal immigration into a massively larger problem than it is. Every unbiased study of this issue shows, that as opposed to the RW rhetoric, undocumented people create less than 1/2 the crimes per capita of native born Americans.

People who have been here for decades have proven not to be a threat. It would behoove us to put them on a path to citizenship. This would create billions of dollars in taxes as well as cut enforcement costs.

There's no reason for the US not to have major guest worker programs with Mexico and other Central American nations. This would dramatically lower the number of "illegals" and create a safer method for people who want into our country.

The concept that MS-13 or other gangs send their troops across the border illegally makes no sense. These cartels and gangs can easily get real or fake passports and fly their people into America "legally" and then disappear. Why would they put the effort into sending people they want to work for them and take the chance that they caught by crossing illegally?

The essential elements of immigration reform have been well known basically forever. Enhanced border security to please the hawks, path to citizenship for the 10,000,000 undocumented already here to please the doves, and a revamped legal immigration system that is transparent and actually allows people to apply to immigrate here and get jobs to please the chamber of commerce constituency.

The crazy thing about US immigration is that there is basically no way to put your name on an application and say "I want to get in the legal line to enter the greatest country on earth." The only legal ways to immigrate are to be sponsored by an employer through a byzantine program, which is often temporary and doesn't lead to citizenship, come in on an asylum claim, or be sponsored by a family member. Most Americans think there is a way to "get in line" to get a green card or become a citizen. In fact there basically is no line. When the immigration system is so broken and essentially non-existent, it is no surprise that people desperate to improve their circumstances are going to try their luck without documentation.

Finally, it would also help if Central America wasn't such a, pardon the phrase, shithole right now due to incredibly bad autocratic and corrupt governments. Mexico got its act more or less together, helped by NAFTA, and immigration from Mexico is way, way down. If you are desperate enough to walk across the entire country of Mexico, there is no reasonable amount of border security that is going to stop you, even Trump's magical insanely expensive wall. Instead of spending insane sums trying to keep these people out with methods that won't work anyway, we should be harnessing that energy and drive by creating a legitimate mechanism to bring these people in to bolster our workforce and aging population.

There are ILLEGAL immigrants from Ireland and Europe in the US. WHY aren't being rounded up?

In 2007, there were 50,0000 ILLEGAL Irish immigrants in the US; http://www.latimes.com/la-op-rodrigu...08-column.html

"There are an estimated 50,000 Irish ILLEHAL immigrants in the U.S.; 30,000 of them are thought to live in New York City. Today, this tiny corner in the northern reaches of the Bronx is perhaps the most heavily Irish-born neighborhood in New York, and advocates believe that as many as 40% of local immigrants are undocumented."

With 30,000 ILLEGAL Irish immigrants in NYC, WHY not do a roundup there? When 30,000 people in a very concentrated area, it's much EASIER than going after the big number who are dispersed nationwide. WHY not go after the low hanging fruit?

also, ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL according to Trump. I guess if the names of "illegals" are JOSE or MUHAMMAD, they are worthier of ruining their families than Liam and Rory.

Wrangor I hate to break it to you, but the only hope we have of fixing. Our immigration system is for Democrats to come up with a coherent policy and win enough elections to implement it. That doesn’t mean conservative ideas don’t have a place in immigration policy, it just means those ideas aren’t going to come from or be supported by the current Republican Party.

The first thing I’d like to see is breaking the immigration “system” down to its component parts:

1. Border Security (keeping bad people and stuff out): This is the only piece of the immigration system that should fall under Homeland Security. The sole goal is to prevent individuals that pose a threat from entering the country. It’s done through intelligence and technology. It should be separate from the rest of the immigration system, but every other piece of the system should be judged by whether it makes this task easier.

2. Immigration processing (awarding visas, green cards, citizenship, etc.): the goal is for every immigrant to enter this system when they arrive at a point of entry (or at the earliest possible moment for those already here). Everyone is assigned a status that gives them varying levels of security, but everyone gets in unless border security seems them a legitimate threat. Once in the system, you have the opportunity to move towards citizenship and the responsibility to continually update your status. Basically, as long as you are working or in school, are paying taxes, and stay out of trouble you keep your status. If not, your status gets revoked (after due process), you are asked to voluntarily leave the country, and you are referred to #3.

3. Immigration enforcement (kicking bad people out): This is it’s own agency who’s sole responsibility is to execute warrants for deportation referred to them by #2 (or in rare cases #1). They must prioritize deportating violent criminals or national security threats.

4. Humanitarian: America should be the standard bearer for accepting the world’s refugees and asylum seekers. Full stop. We should never find ourselves looking more like mid-30s Nazi Germany than modern day Canada. And I’m sorry Wrangor but that’s not hyperbole.

5. Foreign Aid: The best way to stop the flow of immigrants isn’t to try and close the border and terrorize those that come as a deterrent to others. It is to incentivize people, especially in Central and South America, to stay where they are.

6. Economic: The concern of immigrants taking American’s jobs is overwrought, but it’s not entirely unwarranted. Though it’s a separate issue, any rollout of comprehensive immigration reform has to include a plan for helping displaced workers.

RChildress107 said:

Wrangor I hate to break it to you, but the only hope we have of fixing. Our immigration system is for Democrats to come up with a coherent policy and win enough elections to implement it. That doesn’t mean conservative ideas don’t have a place in immigration policy, it just means those ideas aren’t going to come from or be supported by the current Republican Party.

The first thing I’d like to see is breaking the immigration “system” down to its component parts:


2. Immigration processing (awarding visas, green cards, citizenship, etc.): the goal is for every immigrant to enter this system when they arrive at a point of entry (or at the earliest possible moment for those already here). Everyone is assigned a status that gives them varying levels of security, but everyone gets in unless border security seems them a legitimate threat. Once in the system, you have the opportunity to move towards citizenship and the responsibility to continually update your status. Basically, as long as you are working or in school, are paying taxes, and stay out of trouble you keep your status. If not, your status gets revoked (after due process), you are asked to voluntarily leave the country, and you are referred to #3.

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This should be able to be done remotely, like it is now for business-sponsored visas. In today's technological age, why should people have to show up at a border to start their immigration processing?

6. Economic: The concern of immigrants taking American’s jobs is overwrought, but it’s not entirely unwarranted. Though it’s a separate issue, any rollout of comprehensive immigration reform has to include a plan for helping displaced workers.

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How many workers are really being displaced by those arriving at the border? It's more right-wing boogeyman stories.

Thunderbolt is a tremendous resource on this, and we should welcome his input.

I disagree with 923 and others that say the solutions are known. We can't keep thinking about this issue the way we have in the past. We are going to have massive amounts of refugees due to climate change. Also a lot of the economic conditions in South and Central America, and globally, were the result of our own imperialism and economic policy.

We need solutions that recognize and respect the humanity of people, regardless of their ability to work.

Wrangor said:

Our illegal immigrants on the southern border are dying to vote conservative if the Republican party would just get out of the way. They are a deeply religious, familial, bootstraps culture who value work.

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Which of those values do you think are inherently conservative?

"we need a reasonable discussion"
*immediately offends*

Classic Wrangor.

What do we need an airtight border for? We haven't had one and we still need more illegals to fill the workforce demand we currently have. Seems to be working fine as is.

MHBDemon said:

Thunderbolt is a tremendous resource on this, and we should welcome his input.

I disagree with 923 and others that say the solutions are known. We can't keep thinking about this issue the way we have in the past. We are going to have massive amounts of refugees due to climate change. Also a lot of the economic conditions in South and Central America, and globally, were the result of our own imperialism and economic policy.

We need solutions that recognize and respect the humanity of people, regardless of their ability to work.

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And our fear of Communism.

One insubstantial contribution that I have is a wall will be very problematic from a wildlife management and conservation perspective. Wildlife don't follow political boundaries and creating barriers to movement can cause problems for gene flow and population viability for rare, declining, or endangered species. Leopards, Mexican wolves, ocelots and desert tortoises immediately come to mind. I know that these issues are low on the totem pole for most stakeholders, but the government will get sued for violating the endangered species act if they try to construct an impermeable wall on the border.

MHBDemon said:

"we need a reasonable discussion"
*immediately offends*

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What did he say that was offensive?

923 touches on this by recognizing that the root of the problem currently is the dysfunctional nation states in Central America. I see two possible avenues to consider that might reduce the emigration pressure out of Central America: 1) decriminalizing, or even legalizing drugs in the US will reduce the hold that drug gangs have on society in Central America and thus reduce violence in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala; many immigrants are fleeing dangerous/violent environments and abject poverty; 2) significant investment in Central American economies...Costa Rica is not a shit hole but has a stable economy based on eco-tourism agriculture and some industry. The country made a decision 30 years ago, following a border war with Nicaragua to end it's army and invest in educating it's youth and conserving it's natural resources, now, Northward emigration from CR is low.

DistrictDeacon said:

Which of those values do you think are inherently conservative?

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This. Most deeply religious, familial, bootstraps non-white Americans are Democrats.

MHBDemon said:

Thunderbolt is a tremendous resource on this, and we should welcome his input.

I disagree with 923 and others that say the solutions are known. We can't keep thinking about this issue the way we have in the past. We are going to have massive amounts of refugees due to climate change. Also a lot of the economic conditions in South and Central America, and globally, were the result of our own imperialism and economic policy.

We need solutions that recognize and respect the humanity of people, regardless of their ability to work.

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hold up: why are "we" going have to take massive amounts of refugees

The first step is to be able to control the border and make it secure. Without control of one's own border, no immigration policy can be successful; it will only result in chaos. Even talking about immigration policy without secure borders makes little sense because no policy can work under such circumstances.

Once secure borders have been established, one needs to face the basic question: who decides, the migrant or the US authorities. If the US authorities have no say, then the border is in effect open and talking about immigration policy is pointless. If the US authorities do get to select whom to admit and whom not to admit, then there must be clear criteria on whom to allow in: who, why, under what conditions and with what characteristics. And a fruitful discussion on these points would be essential.

The difficulty in trying to help the potential migrants where they are is that the problem is not just economic but also political. It will not help much to provide economic assistance to politically disfunctional countries. Furthermore, many of the countries where migrants come from probably lack the infrastructure to make economic assistence be effective. It's probably one of the reasons people want to leave.

birdman said:

923 touches on this by recognizing that the root of the problem currently is the dysfunctional nation states in Central America. I see two possible avenues to consider that might reduce the emigration pressure out of Central America: 1) decriminalizing, or even legalizing drugs in the US will reduce the hold that drug gangs have on society in Central America and thus reduce violence in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala; many immigrants are fleeing dangerous/violent environments and abject poverty; 2) significant investment in Central American economies...Costa Rica is not a shit hole but has a stable economy based on eco-tourism agriculture and some industry. The country made a decision 30 years ago, following a border war with Nicaragua to end it's army and invest in educating it's youth and conserving it's natural resources, now, Northward emigration from CR is low.

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Agree with both of these things. Unfortunately some of these regimes are pretty odious and it's hard to drive investment to places that are so corrupt. But cutting off foreign aid to "punish" them for allowing emigration is just shooting ourselves in the foot. All that does is increase the push factor.

ImTheCaptain said:

hold up: why are "we" going have to take massive amounts of refugees

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well first, i said "we are going to have" in a global context, just to acknowledge that it is occurring and will continue. the royal "we" if you will.

If we acknowledge our role in both climate change and imperialism/monetary policy, and then turn people away at the border, we are just saying that your (ITC) life is more important than a Honduran.