KP - Report Duke Blue Devils - Tuesday ESPN 7 pm

jaybone said:

In all seriousness, we have a window here to get a good young quality coach (wishful thinking, AD first ideally) before Williams and K retire. Both those programs are going to suffer - at least temporarily. Really hope we don't fuck this up as winning and winning playing focused team basketball with quality players who play within themselves will be double sweet due to the LONG FUCKING WAIT to see that happen.

Can't wait. I'm penciling in 2021 as that year. Seems like a long fucking time from now. It sucks so bad how we don't develop great players - except for Collins and I guess you could argue Moore. Watching Hoard in game 12 be no better no worse than Game 1 is just an awful look.

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There really is an opportunity that may be squandered forever. K, Williams, and Boeheim will be gone in 4 years. Bennett, Mack, and Buzz will be the best coaches left in the ACC. By bringing in a great young coach who can build the program up in 4 years, Wake Forest will have an opportunity to become a consistent top 3 team in the ACC. I say go for a home run and bring in Oats or Prohm.

jaybone said:

In all seriousness, we have a window here to get a good young quality coach (wishful thinking, AD first ideally) before Williams and K retire. Both those programs are going to suffer - at least temporarily. Really hope we don't fuck this up as winning and winning playing focused team basketball with quality players who play within themselves will be double sweet due to the LONG FUCKING WAIT to see that happen.

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Many of us said that through Y3/Y4 of [Redacted]. That window was a lot sweeter 5 seasons ago when VT made the right move. NC State has since made a good move as well. Louisville made a good hire. We're way behind and our chances of making the right move have suffered catastrophically over the last wasted 5 years.

jaybone said:

Can't wait. I'm penciling in 2021 as that year. Seems like a long fucking time from now. It sucks so bad how we don't develop great players - except for Collins and I guess you could argue Moore. Watching Hoard in game 12 be no better no worse than Game 1 is just an awful look.

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Yup, without Manning, how would have John ever made all of those pick n' roll dunks and lay ins?? Give me a break. Danny deserves credit for nothing, except for plunging us further into the abyss of hopelessness and misery. We might as well be in the Ivy League so we can compete.

We're not really competing against Duke and UNC. They get whoever they want from wherever they want. Maybe we're competing with them for fans, but NC is a college hoops mad state. So that's not really a problem, and at least we're a few hours removed from the Triangle.

And the ACC being strong is a good thing, it means tons of at-large appearances for your conference. Beat one or two of the big boys on your home floor and pick up the occasional road win against a decent team -- like we did in '16-17 -- and you go to the dance. A very bad year for the ACC currently would be getting less than half its teams in the tournament. That's not changing any time soon. Syracuse came in 10th place three years ago and they made the Final Four.

Any ACC job is a great job, and Wake's is as good as any outside of the top tier

Why the Deac Not said:

Yup, without Manning, how would have John ever made all of those pick n' roll dunks and lay ins?? Give me a break. Danny deserves credit for nothing, except for plunging us further into the abyss of hopelessness and misery. We might as well be in the Ivy League so we can compete.

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Ah. I am not a black and white guy. You can think a coach sucks or is overmatched to the challenges and still think he does a few things well. Whatever you want to say about Manning, Collins was a 3star recruit. Being a lower level lottery pick does not change that. Rather than be a puss about it, you COULD argue that making Moore a double double machine was far more impressive a feat than turning Collins loose in Year 2. BTW, for me, the thing that Manning ABSOLUTELY SUCKS at is motivation. I think he could hang a towel off a chair in the sun and stand there and try to motivate it to dry, and somehow that motherfucker would stay wet. That is how badly he sucks at motivating players. Hoard, bless his heart, is a great player. But he really liked the fact that it came FUCKING EASY to him all through his teens. Up until now. The thing he needs more than anything else, is a coach to get in his fucking ear and teach/push him to work his ass off in practice so it comes out during games. He picked the wrong fucking program for that.

Collins came in with an elite motor so he didn't need Manning to push him. Can't say I know quite enough about hoops or watched Collins in high school to declare, but Coillins left with really good footwork, at least on offense. Anywho, at this stage, Manning is a good big man coach and maybe he should replace Pete Newell and just work one month a year. He can work on getting that towel to dry the other 11 months. Chances are it won't happen though - the towel drying I mean.

I'm not going to say Manning didn't help Collins in his development, but I remember seeing Collins in his very first game, the exhibition against UNC-Pembroke. I told people after that game, he was definitely the most gifted freshman of that class. I'm sure he didn't have a great stat line from that game, but you could just tell he had "it." Much like I felt after watching Tim Duncan play his first regular season game, the infamous losS to Alaska-Anchorage. Timmy's stat line wasn't great in the game, but you could tell he had "it." If Manning can't at least take an "it" player like Collins and help him improve, then he is 100 percent worthless as a coach, not just the 90 percent worthless as a coach we perceive him to be.

liveanddiedeac said:

I'm not going to say Manning didn't help Collins in his development, but I remember seeing Collins in his very first game, the exhibition against UNC-Pembroke. I told people after that game, he was definitely the most gifted freshman of that class. I'm sure he didn't have a great stat line from that game, but you could just tell he had "it." Much like I felt after watching Tim Duncan play his first regular season game, the infamous lost to Alaska-Anchorage. Timmy's stat line wasn't great in the game, but you could tell he had "it." If Manning can't at least take an "it" player like Collins and help him improve, then he is 100 percent worthless as a coach, not just the 90 percent worthless as a coach we perceive him to be.

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That's a weird argument as Collins was literally voted the most improved player his soph year.

I think this is pretty worthless argument though (and apologize for my part in it). I think the more prescient one, the one that gets to your need for 100% sucktitude is that Manning parlayed Collins success into zero elite big men recruits. We signed Sarr out of necessity and at the time, it certainly seemed at least hopeful, with his international pedigree, but stateside, in a country where the ACC is the best college conference and Collins was 1st time all ACC AND gave Manning huge props and still does, Manning has somehow managed to squander that recruiting wise into NOTHING. And he has lost big men to ride the pine at elite basketball factories. Seems almost impossible.

LilburnDeac said:

That was all such BS. Fucking K and Patrick Davidson. I remember how he was praised for a being a "brilliant motivator" while John Chaney at Temple was suspended for doing basically the same thing the next year.

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I never forgave that rate faced bastard for that. I think those kind of tactics played into Paul's decision.

Also, a head coach at an ACC program having a particular skill isn't that impressive. Should be an absolute given that they are an expert in at least one area of the game, and ideally an expert in many

jaybone said:

That's a weird argument as Collins was literally voted the most improved player his soph year.

I think this is pretty worthless argument though (and apologize for my part in it). I think the more prescient one, the one that gets to your need for 100% sucktitude is that Manning parlayed Collins success into zero elite big men recruits. We signed Sarr out of necessity and at the time, it certainly seemed at least hopeful, with his international pedigree, but stateside, in a country where the ACC is the best college conference and Collins was 1st time all ACC AND gave Manning huge props and still does, Manning has somehow managed to squander that recruiting wise into NOTHING. And he has lost big men to ride the pine at elite basketball factories. Seems almost impossible.

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Not riding the bench helps.

Manning may be a Big Man Whisperer but if so, it only works occasionally. There have been a decent number number of bigs that have set foot on campus and many did not develop at all. Currently we have no suitable big man.

jaybone said:

That's a weird argument as Collins was literally voted the most improved player his soph year.

I think this is pretty worthless argument though (and apologize for my part in it). I think the more prescient one, the one that gets to your need for 100% sucktitude is that Manning parlayed Collins success into zero elite big men recruits. We signed Sarr out of necessity and at the time, it certainly seemed at least hopeful, with his international pedigree, but stateside, in a country where the ACC is the best college conference and Collins was 1st time all ACC AND gave Manning huge props and still does, Manning has somehow managed to squander that recruiting wise into NOTHING. And he has lost big men to ride the pine at elite basketball factories. Seems almost impossible.

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Not at all. It was obvious that Collins was going to be a really good player with just a little experience at the college level and a little coaching. In other words, it's not like Manning had to work all that hard to develop Collins.

jaybone said:

Ah. I am not a black and white guy. You can think a coach sucks or is overmatched to the challenges and still think he does a few things well. Whatever you want to say about Manning, Collins was a 3star recruit. Being a lower level lottery pick does not change that. Rather than be a puss about it, you COULD argue that making Moore a double double machine was far more impressive a feat than turning Collins loose in Year 2.

Collins came in with an elite motor so he didn't need Manning to push him. Can't say I know quite enough about hoops or watched Collins in high school to declare, but Coillins left with really good footwork, at least on offense. Anywho, at this stage, Manning is a good big man coach and maybe he should replace Pete Newell and just work one month a year. He can work on getting that towel to dry the other 11 months. Chances are it won't happen though - the towel drying I mean.

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Y'all really have a tough time differentiating between legitimate takes and snarky OTP exaggerations don't you? And even if it wasn't obvious that I was being a bit hyperbolic, why resort to calling people names? Did I call you a bonehead for thinking Manning deserves a lot of credit for developing Collins?

Anyway, yeah, sure DM recruited him (great job) and finally let him loose his sophomore year. But the only thing he really did to HELP JC was protecting him from his own foul prone inclination to try to block too many shots and reach in on guys when he simply could have protected him by playing more zone. If you go back and watch his mixtape and recruiting videos, the foot work was pretty obvious. It was really more a matter of diagnosing how good the competition was he played against in HS. And no one probably quite envisioned such ridiculous "pogo-stick" hops and athleticism that would help elevate a very flawed team to the point where they could almost compete against any team...whether they could actually win playing that kind of defense was the rub.

I will agree with you there that he probably did more to help the heavy-footed, hyper-sensitive, self-doubting Doral Moore over his time here. But then some could argue he didn't do enough to incorporate him into the offense sooner and carve out a niche for the team WITH John Collins on the floor at the same time. I'll give Danny much more credit for having recruited Bryant Crawford and having the stones to just hand him the reins as a frosh, pretty much getting out of the way. BC was by far and away the best passer Wake has seen since Teague and Ish, and for the most part, facilitated Danny's lazy conceptual offensive game plans that were mostly predicated on high pick n' rolls with BC dominating the ball and the flow of the game. As BC went, so did Wake often times. But now way we come close to winning 19 games without John Collins creating such mis-matches on the interior.

Also, if you followed the Hawks more closely -- not that you would because why?? -- you would know that he is scoring nearly 20 ppg with nary a play ever called for him and very few opportunities to employ said good footwork with back to the basket post-ups. That's just not how the Hawks play and Lloyd Pierce has even admitted as recently as late December that they have NO set plays for John. That is remarkable. And when you think about that, you begin to realize in retrospect, just how good John was as a freaky force of nature at the college level. Not really sure how much Danny Manning ever had to do with that. Other than seeing what I felt was fairly obvious from his HS tape, potential wise.

As we're seeing with Hoard, what is Danny really doing to make him a better player? He seems to be getting easier to defend by the game, other than Cornell.

jaybone said:

Ah. I am not a black and white guy. You can think a coach sucks or is overmatched to the challenges and still think he does a few things well. Whatever you want to say about Manning, Collins was a 3star recruit. Being a lower level lottery pick does not change that. Rather than be a puss about it, you COULD argue that making Moore a double double machine was far more impressive a feat than turning Collins loose in Year 2. BTW, for me, the thing that Manning ABSOLUTELY SUCKS at is motivation. I think he could hang a towel off a chair in the sun and stand there and try to motivate it to dry, and somehow that motherfucker would stay wet. That is how badly he sucks at motivating players. Hoard, bless his heart, is a great player. But he really liked the fact that it came FUCKING EASY to him all through his teens. Up until now. The thing he needs more than anything else, is a coach to get in his fucking ear and teach/push him to work his ass off in practice so it comes out during games. He picked the wrong fucking program for that.

Collins came in with an elite motor so he didn't need Manning to push him. Can't say I know quite enough about hoops or watched Collins in high school to declare, but Coillins left with really good footwork, at least on offense. Anywho, at this stage, Manning is a good big man coach and maybe he should replace Pete Newell and just work one month a year. He can work on getting that towel to dry the other 11 months. Chances are it won't happen though - the towel drying I mean.

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I'm sure there are examples of coaches who are an exception (John Wooden maybe?), but a coach who is a good motivator brings passion, desire and buy-in not just to the players, but the fan base as well. From Day One, as a long-time fan I have not had one iota of motivation about their vision from the program from either redacted or Danny, and that goes back to their very first appearances on campus; one looking like a store mannequin and the other coming up on a motorcycle with his legs bowed out to the side like Henry Gibson on Laugh-In.

I'm seeing opening lines set at Duke -21.5.

Time to bet the house, boys.

Duke walk-ons have a big night.

dcon69 said:

Duke walk-ons have a big night.

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Yeah, they beat us by as much as K decides he wants to. He'll determine the final score with his substitutions.

Hell, if I were K and looking for a challenge to keep the game interesting, I'd set an exact point total I wanted to win by and then see if I could do it.

What is the “NCCU alternative curriculum”?

RacerDeac said:

Yeah, they beat us by as much as K decides he wants to. He'll determine the final score with his substitutions.

Hell, if I were K and looking for a challenge to keep the game interesting, I'd set an exact point total I wanted to win by and then see if I could do it.

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That would be fun.

IMO they’re going to beat us harshly but will call off the dogs and we will make it respectable by the end. Which is the worst of all worlds... we still get the sensation of getting destroyed but Manning gets credit for a competitive final score with a top tier team. K is no fool.

83bluedevil said:

Quick copy from another thread . . .

I'm a Dukie. Although sadly, I've been hoping for a resurrection of BB at WFU. I say sadly, b/c I was in Joel 10+ years ago when the Deacs came back from a 17-point deficit against Duke to win a game in one of the most electrifying atmospheres I've experienced outside Cameron. You guys used to be a reliable foil against the Satan in Chapel Hill -- a small, private school routinely kicking Tar Hole butt. Then came the unknowable equivocation of the Dino firing, the hiring of the Buzzing Automaton, the "Oh, My Heavens, Yes!" manic fake optimism of your AD, the inevitable crow-eating dismissal of the robot, and now the homecoming of Automaton II.

Please. Please. Even State just made a good hire. Even State. Before everyone forgets what Wake BB used to be, hire somebody with a plan. Somebody with charisma. Turn this shit around. Make me circle the game on my calendar again. Get the "Big 4" back to four.

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This is extremely accurate. You should stick around.

MiamiDeacFreak said:

What is the “NCCU alternative curriculum”?

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You should read more.
Duke students (athletes) can attend classes at North Carolina Central University (NCCU) and have them count toward graduation.