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macktheknife

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If Wellman told you we needed to get Clawson to a top 40 salary but we can't buy out Manning and accomplish that, what would you have said? NC State just went to $3.25 million for a coach that can't beat Wake Forest. Clawson salary at 14th in the ACC.
 
If Manning has some ridiculous has 18 million dollar six years contract than Clawson probably has the same although in his case it would be deserved.
 
I would have a hard time giving more for clawson knowing they over did manning. The budget is fungible. Unless mass contributors donate earmarks there is no accountability. Just having one mistake and saying I need to pay this guy more to make up for paying the loser more can’t witk out in the long run.

Insert in Corp world manager is fired for mismanagement of labor costs
 
macktheknife said:
If Wellman told you we needed to get Clawson to a top 40 salary but we can't buy out Manning and accomplish that, what would you have said? NC State just went to $3.25 million for a coach that can't beat Wake Forest. Clawson salary at 14th in the ACC.
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This is a problem. Possibly part of the reason Manning wasn't canned? No justification for Clawson being 14thnin ACC based on the past three years.
 
macktheknife said:
If Wellman told you we needed to get Clawson to a top 40 salary but we can't buy out Manning and accomplish that, what would you have said? NC State just went to $3.25 million for a coach that can't beat Wake Forest. Clawson salary at 14th in the ACC.
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Given the size of our Endowment, just can't believe we couldn't afford a buyout.
 
If we let Clawson walk over money I'd be even more upset with the Athletic Department than I already am. We likely can't compete with the mega football schools. But with the ACC Network and bowl money etc we have plenty of money to pay that man what he deserves if we don't waste it on a loser hoops coach.
 
tbpnwe said:
Given the size of our Endowment, just can't believe we couldn't afford a buyout.
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Wake's endowment is not large compared to other similar schools. Thus the desire/need to admit kids whose parents will pay the full tuition.
 
Buttermaker said:
This is a problem. Possibly part of the reason Manning wasn't canned? No justification for Clawson being 14thnin ACC based on the past three years.
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Clawson didn't sign his current contract in 2019, he signed it in 2017. Is there really no justification for giving "only" a $500-600k raise to a 0.35 coach instead of a $800-$1,000k raise? Is there really no justification to not adding years to a deal that lasts until 2024 when Clawson has received no interest from other programs? Is there really no justification for Clawson making effectively the same amount of money as Addazio, Cutcliffe, and Babers even if it is slightly less?

Unnecessarily throwing money at coaches is how you end up with the Manning debacle. We know the duration of Clawson's extension was similar to Manning's, fair bet that the value and buyout terms are similar too. If true then, in then moment, the Clawson extension would have been almost as bad of a decision as Manning's extension. They both took over programs in bad shape (football program was probably worse), had two bad seasons, and had one mediocre-to-good season. These are not the results worthy of an 8 year extension with a huge buyout. What has happened since is very different, thankfully.

It seems Wellman was unaware that you can sign a 3 or 4 year extension with a limited buyout, which is exactly what both the football and basketball situations called for during that off-season.
 
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macktheknife said:
If Wellman told you we needed to get Clawson to a top 40 salary but we can't buy out Manning and accomplish that, what would you have said? NC State just went to $3.25 million for a coach that can't beat Wake Forest. Clawson salary at 14th in the ACC.
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The new ACC/ESPN money can cover both.
 
macktheknife said:
If Wellman told you we needed to get Clawson to a top 40 salary but we can't buy out Manning and accomplish that, what would you have said? NC State just went to $3.25 million for a coach that can't beat Wake Forest. Clawson salary at 14th in the ACC.
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I'd say we have another $10 million coming in from the ACC network starting soon so stop blowing smoke up my ass (lying is Wellman's specialty).
 
WFU Lurker said:
Clawson didn't sign his current contract in 2019, he signed it in 2017. Is there really no justification for giving "only" a $500-600k raise to a 0.35 coach instead of a $800-$1,000k raise? Is there really no justification to not adding years to a deal that lasts until 2024 when Clawson has received no interest from other programs? Is there really no justification for Clawson making effectively the same amount of money as Addazio, Cutcliffe, and Babers even if it is slightly less?

Unnecessarily throwing money at coaches is how you end up with the Manning debacle. We know the duration of Clawson's extension was similar to Manning's, fair bet that the value and buyout terms are similar too. If true then, in then moment, the Clawson extension would have been almost as bad of a decision as Manning's extension. They both took over programs in bad shape (football program was probably worse), had two bad seasons, and had one mediocre-to-good season. These are not the results worthy of an 8 year extension with a huge buyout. What has happened since is very different, thankfully.

It seems Wellman was unaware that you can sign a 3 or 4 year extension with a limited buyout, which is exactly what both the football and basketball situations called for during that off-season.
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I agree with most if not all of this. I don't like extensions offered too early, for too many years and for too much money. But, my point was he reportedly is currently the 14th highest paid ACC football coach. Based on what he has done at Wake with what he inherited, no way he should be 14th. Currently. That will be the point of reference when/if other schools come calling. And compare his teams' performance with Mannings' and the revenue produced by both programs, their relative compensation packages are inequitable.
 
Clawson deserves to be rewarded for the work he has done, period. If we wait for bigger schools to come calling, we will be too late and we will lose. One important means for holding on to a really good coach is to acknowledge and reward his accomplishments both by paying him in a manner that is worthy of his achievements and by paying his assistant coaches as he thinks necessary (as much as possible). And worthy achievements at WF are not the same as they are at Clemson or FSU or VT. Winning at Wake requires harder work in recruiting, in development and in scheming than at schools that are able to recruit better athletes at virtually every position.

This only pertains to football. In basketball we once had the tradition sufficient to recruit better athletes. We have squandered that and we have not been able to find coaches who are able or willing to work hard enough to accomplish in basketball what Clawson has accomplished in football. Yet we pay underachieving coaches comparably or more than over-achieving coaches. That is foolishness and mismanagement. In order to level out the inequity radical change must occur and probably financial loss must be endured. Better to suffer the financial hit than to allow either program to suffer more erosion. So, pay Clawson and find a coach worthy of being paid for basketball and if you have to absorb a huge loss to get there, do it now. Delaying the loss will only mean greater loss in the future.
 
Buttermaker said:
I agree with most if not all of this. I don't like extensions offered too early, for too many years and for too much money. But, my point was he reportedly is currently the 14th highest paid ACC football coach. Based on what he has done at Wake with what he inherited, no way he should be 14th. Currently. That will be the point of reference when/if other schools come calling. And compare his teams' performance with Mannings' and the revenue produced by both programs, their relative compensation packages are inequitable.
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Did he really inherit a notable worse situation than Addazio, Cutcliffe, or Babers? Has he really had significantly better results? Seems to me like it's right for him to be in the mix with those guys and that's probably where he is. Whether Clawson makes $50k less than the worst paid of them or $50k more than the best paid of them is not really going to make a difference if another program pursues him (but it would move him from 14th to 11th). Furthermore, one would hope that he will show a little loyalty if someone actually does pursue him and allow Wake to make a counter-offer. If he pulls an Underwood on us after we gave him an 8 year extension after a single winning season then it's just a matter of when he leaves rather than if anyway.
 
Buttermaker said:
But, my point was he reportedly is currently the 14th highest paid ACC football coach.
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We have no idea what Clawson is making right now or how the bowls have affected his bonuses/raises. I'm not even sure we have reporting on his salary since he signed a new contract...I'd need to go back and compare dates between 990's and the announcement. It's apples to oranges trying to compare the limited and very delayed 990 reporting we get on our coaches to the public contracts of most of the State schools we compete against.
 
You guys are nuts. The guy who has won three straight bowl games pales in comparison to the guy who has had four historically terrible seasons sandwiched around a psuedo-tournament appearance.
 
RacerDeac said:
We have no idea what Clawson is making right now or how the bowls have affected his bonuses/raises. I'm not even sure we have reporting on his salary since he signed a new contract...I'd need to go back and compare dates between 990's and the announcement. It's apples to oranges trying to compare the limited and very delayed 990 reporting we get on our coaches to the public contracts of most of the State schools we compete against.
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We do not have access to 990s yet that would reflect his new salary. That said, the peer group that I have been mentioning have also all signed extensions since Clawson did. I would think as long as he's within range of those guys, he should feel fairly compensated . Beyond that, we would just be bidding against ourselves.
 
CantStandYa said:
You guys are nuts. The guy who has won three straight bowl games pales in comparison to the guy who has had four historically terrible seasons sandwiched around a psuedo-tournament appearance.
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Not really sure your point. No one is saying that Clawson's fair value is not above Manning's. But, we also have reason to believe Manning has an over-generous contract, and Manning is not the appropriate reference point anyway. The appropriate reference point are the three coaches who took over similar situations and had similar results at similar institutions.
 
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