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Covid-19 - Treatments & Vaccines

Tobacco Road said:
This pretty much shuts down the colonel's argument but he won't understand it.
I am so tired of assholes trying to compare reality with preventive measures to ones without (#2).
In terms of number 3, pubs have made a huge deal about how Fauci didn't support masks initially and then changed. We didn't have data it would help, but knew we were screwed if everybody went out and consumed all the available masks. That would leave health care providers caring for patients with diseases like tuberculosis without adequate protection.

At this point, if you are arguing against masks or vaccines you are really misinformed or just a really shit person. Probably both.
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There was a shortage of toilet paper so it made sense that there would be a shortage of masks.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the types of cloth masks we commonly use now didn’t exist or barely existed and it wasn’t clear if they would work compared to N95 masks and the like.

Also, they didn’t want people at that just throwing on a mask and leaving the house anyway.
 
Colonel Angus said:
Lulz - I'm pro-vax so you are mistaken yet again, doc. This is becoming an alarming habit for such an expert.

Also have zero issues if you (or anybody else) wants to continue to mask up the rest of your lives. And zero issue if parents want to send their kids to school in masks through graduation. Enjoy the performative theatre.

My issue is forcing mask mandates on kids in school. The latest data from FL (which is a Covid hotspot and where DeSantis is literally killing children according to twitter and many on this board) has a case fatality rate of 0.0031% for kids 16 and under.

http://ww11.doh.state.fl.us/comm/_partners/covid19_report_archive/covid19-data/covid19_data_latest.pdf
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I didn't accuse you of being against vaccines, I've seen your comment that you are "proudly vaxed". So, you are the one that is mistaken. Stop being so sensitive. That was a general statement. Masks and vaccines go together.
Also, for everyone's sake, stop thinking you know more than medical professionals about medical issues.
Stop reducing the masking debate to mortality rate among kids. That is not close to the only consideration. I doubt it is going to change very much, but we don't have data on morbidity/mortality with delta variant. Delta is why measures are going "backwards".
You think you are teaching the physicians and scientists on this board something. That is just astonishing. As Rafi noted, we are open to looking at new data. It is possible you will find something, from time to time, that we haven't seen that is useful. But the idea that you have this all figured out and the medical professionals are still clueless is just absurd. And it is dangerous. We are tired of dealing with assholes like you. We are tired of caring for assholes like you. We are tired caring for people that have been confused and misinformed by assholes like you.
 
Tobacco Road said:
I didn't accuse you of being against vaccines, I've seen your comment that you are "proudly vaxed". So, you are the one that is mistaken. Stop being so sensitive. That was a general statement. Masks and vaccines go together.
Also, for everyone's sake, stop thinking you know more than medical professionals about medical issues.
Stop reducing the masking debate to mortality rate among kids. That is not close to the only consideration. I doubt it is going to change very much, but we don't have data on morbidity/mortality with delta variant. Delta is why measures are going "backwards".
You think you are teaching the physicians and scientists on this board something. That is just astonishing. As Rafi noted, we are open to looking at new data. It is possible you will find something, from time to time, that we haven't seen that is useful. But the idea that you have this all figured out and the medical professionals are still clueless is just absurd. And it is dangerous. We are tired of dealing with assholes like you. We are tired of caring for assholes like you. We are tired caring for people that have been confused and misinformed by assholes like you.
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Pretty hard to imagine Angus missing the point.
 
Rafi said:
There were many reasons:

1. There was a swine flu vaccine for kids down to age 0.
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Only 27% of Americans over the age of 6 months were vaccinated for swine flu according to the CDC - https://www.cdc.gov/flu/fluvaxview/coverage_0910estimates.htm

Rafi said:
2. The numbers you quote for swine flu occurred with kids in school, no masking, and no social distancing. Had kids been in school last year without masks, the COVID numbers would have been much higher in kids.
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Why were kids still in school? Why no masking or social distancing for a deadly virus? Over 1,000 kids died from swine flu.

Rafi said:
3. We did not have nearly as much data in 2009 showing how effective masks and distancing are in preventing viral respiratory illness spread
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Good to know 'The Science' has made such amazing strides over the past 10 years in mask and social distance testing which was just not possible in the early part of the 21st century.
 
Colonel Angus said:
Lulz - I'm pro-vax so you are mistaken yet again, doc. This is becoming an alarming habit for such an expert.

Also have zero issues if you (or anybody else) wants to continue to mask up the rest of your lives. And zero issue if parents want to send their kids to school in masks through graduation. Enjoy the performative theatre.

My issue is forcing mask mandates on kids in school. The latest data from FL (which is a Covid hotspot and where DeSantis is literally killing children according to twitter and many on this board) has a case fatality rate of 0.0031% for kids 16 and under.

http://ww11.doh.state.fl.us/comm/_partners/covid19_report_archive/covid19-data/covid19_data_latest.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks for linking that - there's some interesting info in there. Note that the case fatality rate is for under age 16 (not 16 and under).

COVID is a terrible pandemic. It would obviously be even worse if kids were dying at the same rates as adult, so we are very lucky that is not the case. But kids spread COVID, and when they do, it spreads to adults. Masking, especially indoors and when rates are high, helps decrease the spread of COVID. This applies to everyone, kids and adults, which is why masking in schools at this time, will help decrease the spread of COVID, which will decrease deaths. COVID is highly predictable in that when cases go up, hospitalizations go up about 1 week later, and then deaths go up about 1-2 weeks after that.
 
Colonel Angus said:
Only 27% of Americans over the age of 6 months were vaccinated for swine flu according to the CDC - https://www.cdc.gov/flu/fluvaxview/coverage_0910estimates.htm



Why were kids still in school? Why no masking or social distancing for a deadly virus? Over 1,000 kids died from swine flu.



Good to know 'The Science' has made such amazing strides over the past 10 years in mask and social distance testing which was just not possible in the early part of the 21st century.
Click to expand...

-The swine flu vaccine was available for all school aged kids, and 41% chose to be vaccinated, whereas currently no children under age 12 can get the COVID vaccine.
-The magnitude of the swine flu is not even close to COVID. 12,000 people died in the US of swine flu. To date, 630,000 in the US have died from COVID. The two are not even comparable - I'm not sure why we are still comparing them. The swine flu death rate was the same as a normal endemic flu year in the US.
-Masking and distancing data are from the last year, not the past 10. The pandemic has unfortunately provided massive amounts of data on masking and distancing, both of which have proven highly effective.
 
Have we discussed the unvaccinated elementary teacher who tested positive for COVID, came to work anyway, took off her mask to read to her class, and infected half of her students?

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e2.htm?s_cid=mm7035e2_w

On May 25, 2021, the Marin County Department of Public Health (MCPH) was notified by an elementary school that on May 23, an unvaccinated teacher had reported receiving a positive test result for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The teacher reported becoming symptomatic on May 19, but continued to work for 2 days before receiving a test on May 21. On occasion during this time, the teacher read aloud unmasked to the class despite school requirements to mask while indoors. Beginning May 23, additional cases of COVID-19 were reported among other staff members, students, parents, and siblings connected to the school. To characterize the outbreak, on May 26, MCPH initiated case investigation and contact tracing that included whole genome sequencing (WGS) of available specimens. A total of 27 cases were identified, including that of the teacher. During May 23–26, among the teacher’s 24 students, 22 students, all ineligible for vaccination because of age, received testing for SARS-CoV-2; 12 received positive test results. The attack rate in the two rows seated closest to the teacher’s desk was 80% (eight of 10) and was 28% (four of 14) in the three back rows (Fisher’s exact test; p = 0.036). During May 24–June 1, six of 18 students in a separate grade at the school, all also too young for vaccination, received positive SARS-CoV-2 test results. Eight additional cases were also identified, all in parents and siblings of students in these two grades. Among these additional cases, three were in persons fully vaccinated in accordance with CDC recommendations (1). Among the 27 total cases, 22 (81%) persons reported symptoms; the most frequently reported symptoms were fever (41%), cough (33%), headache (26%), and sore throat (26%). WGS of all 18 available specimens identified the B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant. Vaccines are effective against the Delta variant (2), but risk of transmission remains elevated among unvaccinated persons in schools without strict adherence to prevention strategies. In addition to vaccination for eligible persons, strict adherence to nonpharmaceutical prevention strategies, including masking, routine testing, facility ventilation, and staying home when symptomatic, are important to ensure safe in-person learning in schools (3).
 
PhDeac said:
Have we discussed the unvaccinated elementary teacher who tested positive for COVID, came to work anyway, took off her mask to read to her class, and infected half of her students?

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e2.htm?s_cid=mm7035e2_w

On May 25, 2021, the Marin County Department of Public Health (MCPH) was notified by an elementary school that on May 23, an unvaccinated teacher had reported receiving a positive test result for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The teacher reported becoming symptomatic on May 19, but continued to work for 2 days before receiving a test on May 21. On occasion during this time, the teacher read aloud unmasked to the class despite school requirements to mask while indoors. Beginning May 23, additional cases of COVID-19 were reported among other staff members, students, parents, and siblings connected to the school. To characterize the outbreak, on May 26, MCPH initiated case investigation and contact tracing that included whole genome sequencing (WGS) of available specimens. A total of 27 cases were identified, including that of the teacher. During May 23–26, among the teacher’s 24 students, 22 students, all ineligible for vaccination because of age, received testing for SARS-CoV-2; 12 received positive test results. The attack rate in the two rows seated closest to the teacher’s desk was 80% (eight of 10) and was 28% (four of 14) in the three back rows (Fisher’s exact test; p = 0.036). During May 24–June 1, six of 18 students in a separate grade at the school, all also too young for vaccination, received positive SARS-CoV-2 test results. Eight additional cases were also identified, all in parents and siblings of students in these two grades. Among these additional cases, three were in persons fully vaccinated in accordance with CDC recommendations (1). Among the 27 total cases, 22 (81%) persons reported symptoms; the most frequently reported symptoms were fever (41%), cough (33%), headache (26%), and sore throat (26%). WGS of all 18 available specimens identified the B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant. Vaccines are effective against the Delta variant (2), but risk of transmission remains elevated among unvaccinated persons in schools without strict adherence to prevention strategies. In addition to vaccination for eligible persons, strict adherence to nonpharmaceutical prevention strategies, including masking, routine testing, facility ventilation, and staying home when symptomatic, are important to ensure safe in-person learning in schools (3).
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Only 0.03% of her class is going to die. It's perfectly fine.
 
PhDeac said:
Have we discussed the unvaccinated elementary teacher who tested positive for COVID, came to work anyway, took off her mask to read to her class, and infected half of her students?

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e2.htm?s_cid=mm7035e2_w

On May 25, 2021, the Marin County Department of Public Health (MCPH) was notified by an elementary school that on May 23, an unvaccinated teacher had reported receiving a positive test result for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The teacher reported becoming symptomatic on May 19, but continued to work for 2 days before receiving a test on May 21. On occasion during this time, the teacher read aloud unmasked to the class despite school requirements to mask while indoors. Beginning May 23, additional cases of COVID-19 were reported among other staff members, students, parents, and siblings connected to the school. To characterize the outbreak, on May 26, MCPH initiated case investigation and contact tracing that included whole genome sequencing (WGS) of available specimens. A total of 27 cases were identified, including that of the teacher. During May 23–26, among the teacher’s 24 students, 22 students, all ineligible for vaccination because of age, received testing for SARS-CoV-2; 12 received positive test results. The attack rate in the two rows seated closest to the teacher’s desk was 80% (eight of 10) and was 28% (four of 14) in the three back rows (Fisher’s exact test; p = 0.036). During May 24–June 1, six of 18 students in a separate grade at the school, all also too young for vaccination, received positive SARS-CoV-2 test results. Eight additional cases were also identified, all in parents and siblings of students in these two grades. Among these additional cases, three were in persons fully vaccinated in accordance with CDC recommendations (1). Among the 27 total cases, 22 (81%) persons reported symptoms; the most frequently reported symptoms were fever (41%), cough (33%), headache (26%), and sore throat (26%). WGS of all 18 available specimens identified the B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant. Vaccines are effective against the Delta variant (2), but risk of transmission remains elevated among unvaccinated persons in schools without strict adherence to prevention strategies. In addition to vaccination for eligible persons, strict adherence to nonpharmaceutical prevention strategies, including masking, routine testing, facility ventilation, and staying home when symptomatic, are important to ensure safe in-person learning in schools (3).
Click to expand...

There is a lot to learn from this type of deep-dive into a small outbreak. First, it shows the challenge of studying masking and mask policy - an outbreak occurred in a school that required masks on everyone indoors. So if a study just looked at mask policy, it would not appear to be effective in this school. But, once you learn that the teacher was symptomatic and took off her mask to read (I mean, c'mon), it changes everything. This is why good mask epidemiologic studies need to be huge, so incidents like this don't skew the data. I think looking at comparable cities or countries is the best approach.

Second, this shows the importance of distancing, because those closest to her had the highest infection rate.

Third, it shows how quickly delta can spread - this one teacher was responsible for the infection of at least 27 others (and certainly a lot more if you look at who those 27 infected).
 
Rafi said:
There is a lot to learn from this type of deep-dive into a small outbreak. First, it shows the challenge of studying masking and mask policy - an outbreak occurred in a school that required masks on everyone indoors. So if a study just looked at mask policy, it would not appear to be effective in this school. But, once you learn that the teacher was symptomatic and took off her mask to read (I mean, c'mon), it changes everything. This is why good mask epidemiologic studies need to be huge, so incidents like this don't skew the data. I think looking at comparable cities or countries is the best approach.

Second, this shows the importance of distancing, because those closest to her had the highest infection rate.

Third, it shows how quickly delta can spread - this one teacher was responsible for the infection of at least 27 others (and certainly a lot more if you look at who those 27 infected).
Click to expand...

I think I'll wait for Angus to tell us what this actually shows us, but thanks for your input Dr. Rafi.
 
Angus's last gasps at arguing the no mask for kids bit is pretty bad. No way he doesn't understand, no way he is that stupid.

nah, he's gotta hang on to a little something to make him feel like he is resisting liberal policymakers he believes are forcing him to do something for some nefarious reasons he has imagined (i think its Dr's in a conspiracy to force socialized medicine, not sure though).

its like Conservatism is a mental disorder causing people to construct a bunch of pretzel logic to explain away their inconsistent and contradictory positions, which are really just rooted in being a spoiled rotten American wanting their way all the time
 
Rafi said:
Thanks for linking that - there's some interesting info in there. Note that the case fatality rate is for under age 16 (not 16 and under).

COVID is a terrible pandemic. It would obviously be even worse if kids were dying at the same rates as adult, so we are very lucky that is not the case. But kids spread COVID, and when they do, it spreads to adults. Masking, especially indoors and when rates are high, helps decrease the spread of COVID. This applies to everyone, kids and adults, which is why masking in schools at this time, will help decrease the spread of COVID, which will decrease deaths. COVID is highly predictable in that when cases go up, hospitalizations go up about 1 week later, and then deaths go up about 1-2 weeks after that.
Click to expand...

Rafi said:
-The swine flu vaccine was available for all school aged kids, and 41% chose to be vaccinated, whereas currently no children under age 12 can get the COVID vaccine.
-The magnitude of the swine flu is not even close to COVID. 12,000 people died in the US of swine flu. To date, 630,000 in the US have died from COVID. The two are not even comparable - I'm not sure why we are still comparing them. The swine flu death rate was the same as a normal endemic flu year in the US.
-Masking and distancing data are from the last year, not the past 10. The pandemic has unfortunately provided massive amounts of data on masking and distancing, both of which have proven highly effective.
Click to expand...

This is just what Ron Wellman WANTS us to believe.
 
To a mentally frail and insecure person there’s nothing weaker than admitting you were wrong.
 
Angus, why don't you want kids to wear masks in schools? They don't mind.
 
Rafi said:
There is a lot to learn from this type of deep-dive into a small outbreak. First, it shows the challenge of studying masking and mask policy - an outbreak occurred in a school that required masks on everyone indoors. So if a study just looked at mask policy, it would not appear to be effective in this school. But, once you learn that the teacher was symptomatic and took off her mask to read (I mean, c'mon), it changes everything. This is why good mask epidemiologic studies need to be huge, so incidents like this don't skew the data. I think looking at comparable cities or countries is the best approach.

Second, this shows the importance of distancing, because those closest to her had the highest infection rate.

Third, it shows how quickly delta can spread - this one teacher was responsible for the infection of at least 27 others (and certainly a lot more if you look at who those 27 infected).
Click to expand...

third point is the most important - children spread the virus to others including those who live at home; this group could of course include grandparents who are at risk (vaccinated or not).

CDC released an earlier MMWR (pre-Delta variant) which showed similar results in Marietta City schools in Georgia - kids who improperly wore masks spreading Covid-19

masks clearly aren't perfect, and even if they were, masking is not perfect, so we won't see bright-line clear results as there will be cofounders in any attempt at a study; that's different from saying they provide no benefit (they clearly provide a benefit greater than zero)
 
06deacon said:
To a mentally frail and insecure person there’s nothing weaker than admitting you were wrong.
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is brad mentally frail, insecure, or just a terrible person? he's proof that it's easy to cover up being an unlikeable asshole if you're dim-witted to begin with.
 
My 6yo's favorite right now is the shark teeth mask, but he still goes for the camouflaged one once in a while.

My middle schooler is school sports logo mask, and high schooler is all black pretty consistently.
 
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