A college degree is a lousy investment

[PhDeac]

Brasky just created biffkf

It’s been coming for awhile. Either that or TheBiff.

By the way, there are people who got PPP loans who would also get a loan reduction here as well.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Are you somehow under the impression that you're the only person here who borrowed money to go to school?

Anecdotes are fun, but there is plenty of data showing that a much smaller percentage of Wake students receive need based financial aid than the average college, and compared to nearby universities. 24% of the Wake class of 2019 received need based financial aid, same year 46% of Carolina students received need based aid, 44% for NC State.

Some other data, 50% of Wake students receive student loans vs 82% at Winston Salem State, despite WSSU being less than 1/3 the cost of Wake, and the average student loan total at WSSU only being 1000 less than the average student loan at Wake.

Absolutely undeniable that the student body at Wake is economically privileged compared to the average university and the average Wake student far less likely to take on onerous loan debt, despite Wake costing now 60k per year. Extending even beyond that, it’s safely assumable that a student body that comes from economically comfortable families are much more likely to pay back their loans quickly before interest accrues than graduates of other universities who come from less privileged backgrounds.

 

[dartsndeacs]

I'm fine with letting the market decide on the loans, and making them dischargable in bankruptcy. I'm one of those 24% that received need based aid, college generally cost my parents less than a grand a semester and I was the only kid without a car or a cell phone there, but I also got enough wake grants to keep my aid down around $30-40k when I got out. So from my #anecdotes, the system works just fine for the poor national merit scholar honorable mention.

If you let the market decide no one's racking up $50k in WSSU debt because a WSSU degree ain't gonna provide the return that my Wake degree did which can 5 degrees of Kevin Bacon tie itself to every job I've had in the 20 years since I've graduated.

Get the market involved and there will be a lot less tribble kids and a lot cheaper tuition.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

I dunno 2&2, how do ya think MTG's roofing, painting, interior and exterior GC business would have survived during the pandemic without that $180k?

I have no idea who she is, but if her business needed the cash to pay its employees because it could not operate then it got what it needed. If she didn't need it but filed it anyway, then that is fraudulent on her part but does not invalidate the entire program. If her business was not affected except as arose from the irrational overhyping of the pandemic as it related to the vast majority of society, like plenty were not, then thank Fauci.

I also find it humorous to compare a hastily prepared, emergency-based program driven by Fauci's cries of pending doom and death, to an ill-conceived plan to forgive a snapshot of student loans that has had decades to be thought through. But this is obviously nothing more than Biden's attempt to buy some millennial votes that would not have shown up otherwise, which is fine as that is all he has left and it is good to see him openly admitting it.

 

[deacdiggler]

I think this was a bad idea. Not because I hate people, but because I think it will cause even more foaming at the mouth for future loan forgiveness. Why should this exact generation of people be given $10,000, when kids who are just starting school will be expected to take out MORE loans to pay for more expensive school in the future, because the schools aren't going to quit raising prices so long as the government keeps subsidizing them. Taxpayers are ultimately the ones bailing all of this out, and while it will just be another drop in the ocean of national debt, it's still more for taxpayers to shoulder.

The better way to solve this problem is: limit the amount of debt that students can take on - give it a hard dollar amount. Make it 0% interest for twenty years with an amortization scale that reflects the reality of new college grads. If you graduate with $60,000 of college debt ($15k/year) and a $30,000/year job, a flat $250/month is reasonable; if you need to, cut it in half for the first 10 years with a 1% interest rate and make it up on the last 10 years. And require people to take a one-hour online course about how this will all work before they get the loan.

 

[TownieDeac]

Or address it at the supply side and sanction rising costs, at least of public higher ed.

 

[Biff Tannen]

Anybody who went to Wake Forest and has a mountain of student loan debt has irresponsible and enabling parents. OR, you personally made bad decisions in your late teens, despite being smart enough to get into WF. Complaining that you can't afford it after the fact shows how little thought you put into your actions. If you graduated from Wake with $50K of debt (or more), when you could have gone to State or UNC or some other public college with virtually no debt, and then you made a bad decision.

I agree that public universities are underfunded and the spiraling cost of tuition is unconscionable. The government has caused much of that by participating in these loans. But the lack of personal responsibility that some of you are exhibiting is astounding. But it's not surprising considering the sources.

Not paying back money that you borrowed, supposedly in good faith, is immoral. There are ways to graduate from college with minimal student loan debt that you can't afford, including not going to grad school for ten years.

Now, if you went to a public university and graduated in four years and took advantage of every program to lessen your debt, you probably deserve some help.

 

[Deleted member 7528]

Or address it at the supply side and sanction rising costs, at least of public higher ed.

Columbia University has a $14.35B endowment.

Duke University has a $12.7B endowment.

Stanford is trying to scrape by on $37B on ice.

Even LOWF has a $1.35B endowment.

Why are we giving these people more money?

 

[thatguy2016]

 

[thatguy2016]

Anybody who went to Wake Forest and has a mountain of student loan debt has irresponsible and enabling parents. OR, you personally made bad decisions in your late teens, despite being smart enough to get into WF. Complaining that you can't afford it after the fact shows how little thought you put into your actions. If you graduated from Wake with $50K of debt (or more), when you could have gone to State or UNC or some other public college with virtually no debt, and then you made a bad decision.

I agree that public universities are underfunded and the spiraling cost of tuition is unconscionable. The government has caused much of that by participating in these loans. But the lack of personal responsibility that some of you are exhibiting is astounding. But it's not surprising considering the sources.

Not paying back money that you borrowed, supposedly in good faith, is immoral. There are ways to graduate from college with minimal student loan debt that you can't afford, including not going to grad school for ten years.

Now, if you went to a public university and graduated in four years and took advantage of every program to lessen your debt, you probably deserve some help.

I agree with this 100%. Further, if you decided as a college graduate to attend graduate school, and took on debt to do so, then you had already made it in society. You made an adult decision to take on debt.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Anybody who went to Wake Forest and has a mountain of student loan debt has irresponsible and enabling parents. OR, you personally made bad decisions in your late teens, despite being smart enough to get into WF. Complaining that you can't afford it after the fact shows how little thought you put into your actions. If you graduated from Wake with $50K of debt (or more), when you could have gone to State or UNC or some other public college with virtually no debt, and then you made a bad decision.

I agree that public universities are underfunded and the spiraling cost of tuition is unconscionable. The government has caused much of that by participating in these loans. But the lack of personal responsibility that some of you are exhibiting is astounding. But it's not surprising considering the sources.

Not paying back money that you borrowed, supposedly in good faith, is immoral. There are ways to graduate from college with minimal student loan debt that you can't afford, including not going to grad school for ten years.

Now, if you went to a public university and graduated in four years and took advantage of every program to lessen your debt, you probably deserve some help.

Here’s the thing though Biff, it doesn’t matter if you think it’s immoral or a bad decision, or whatever other judge-y condescending shit. It’s bad for the entire country for such a large percentage of people to have onerous debt and thus worse credit straight out of college. You taking on this distant 10 mile micro economic perspective is ignorant. This is a problem that affects the entire country because it’s suppressing the buying power of a huge segment of the country - it skews numerous markets, job, housing, trading, and it’s an anchor on the economy. You are not so disconnected from this problem that you can afford to say “fuck those irresponsible people”. You may *think* you are, but you aren’t.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

i feel like biff is right here but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also find a way to help those who got snared by massive student debt

some families/students without a ton of financial savvy were sold a bill of goods about the promise of a college degree.

 

[TownieDeac]

Hey jh, nice to see ya, buddy. Did you know a Reagan economic advisor by the name of Roger Freeman warned in 1970 that free college was "in danger of producing an educated proletariat. That's dynamite! We have to be selective on who we allow to go through higher education. If not, we will have a large number of highly trained and unemployed people."

At the time he was referring to the University of California system and CUNY. Governor Reagan would do away with free tuition in the UC system. Imagine if, instead, he'd allowed millions of Americans to go to good public schools for free and not take out billions in loans over 50+ years. What would that center of gravity of the largest public higher ed system in America have done to rising costs? Dynamite indeed!

50 years later and now the GOP is just infiltrating primary education with anti-CRT nonsense, and it kinda feels like you're still worried about an educated proletariat.

 

[tiltdeac]

I agree with this 100%. Further, if you decided as a college graduate to attend graduate school, and took on debt to do so, then you had already made it in society. You made an adult decision to take on debt.

So the group that subscribes to this line of thinking, do you feel the way about companies that fail and declare bankruptcy? Immoral? Should be saddled with the debt forever no matter what?

 

[Donkey Deac Doug]

One more example of, "government subsidy ruins a thing."

As long as humans engage in rent-seeking behavior, Government subsidy will be the wrong path. Which is always.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

Hey jh, nice to see ya, buddy. Did you know a Reagan economic advisor by the name of Roger Freeman warned in 1970 that free college was "in danger of producing an educated proletariat. That's dynamite! We have to be selective on who we allow to go through higher education. If not, we will have a large number of highly trained and unemployed people."

At the time he was referring to the University of California system and CUNY. Governor Reagan would do away with free tuition in the UC system. Imagine if, instead, he'd allowed millions of Americans to go to good public schools for free and not take out billions in loans over 50+ years. What would that center of gravity of the largest public higher ed system in America have done to rising costs? Dynamite indeed!

50 years later and now the GOP is just infiltrating primary education with anti-CRT nonsense, and it kinda feels like you're still worried about an educated proletariat.

does anyone have access to the San. Francisco Chronicle's archives? b/c good luck trying to read the actual article/op-ed from 1970

just curious b/c it's an oft-cited quote but im curious what the rest of this spicy take's message was

 

[Biff Tannen]

Here’s the thing though Biff, it doesn’t matter if you think it’s immoral or a bad decision, or whatever other judge-y condescending shit. It’s bad for the entire country for such a large percentage of people to have onerous debt and thus worse credit straight out of college. You taking on this distant 10 mile micro economic perspective is ignorant. This is a problem that affects the entire country because it’s suppressing the buying power of a huge segment of the country - it skews numerous markets, job, housing, trading, and it’s an anchor on the economy. You are not so disconnected from this problem that you can afford to say “fuck those irresponsible people”. You may *think* you are, but you aren’t.

First it does matter what I think and it matters what everyone in this country who bothers to vote thinks. There are people all over this country who are up to their eyeballs in debt who may or may not have a marketable college degree who aren't getting any sort of loan forgiveness outside of declaring bankruptcy. And yes, I understand that student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

You're right that it is bad for the country. Something should be done about our college system and students should not be borrowing money that they can't repay. Both of these things can be true. This does nothing to fix that and further emboldens the student debt folks, like Elizabeth Warren, to continue to demand more loan forgiveness.

 

[Deleted member 7528]

First it does matter what I think and it matters what everyone in this country who bothers to vote thinks. There are people all over this country who are up to their eyeballs in debt who may or may not have a marketable college degree who aren't getting any sort of loan forgiveness outside of declaring bankruptcy. And yes, I understand that student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

You're right that it is bad for the country. Something should be done about our college system and students should not be borrowing money that they can't repay. Both of these things can be true. This does nothing to fix that and further emboldens the student debt folks, like Elizabeth Warren, to continue to demand more loan forgiveness.

And why might that be? Because without this protection, lenders wouldn't make these loans in the first place. There's not a lot of wisdom in lending hundreds of thousands of dollars to 18 year old kids without marketable skills who are going to get a social science degree. THAT is a lousy investment. Thus.

 

[Biff Tannen]

And why might that be? Because without this protection, lenders wouldn't make these loans in the first place. There's not a lot of wisdom in lending hundreds of thousands of dollars to 18 year old kids without marketable skills who are going to get a social science degree. THAT is a lousy investment. Thus.

Yeah, you'd graduate at age 21 with $150K in debt, immediately declare bankruptcy, then restore your credit in a couple of years. Then, of course there would be no more student loans, except those from the federal government.

 

[TimmyClutch]