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Israel Attacked and its Response

myDeaconmyhand said:
I agree with the spirit of the arguments, but trying to make analogous comparisons with the Axis powers is not great. Palestine is an occupied territory, and Israel the occupier attempting an ethnic cleansing. There having been attempting this cleansing for 100 years makes it no more legitimate than had it just been 1 day. Economically developing an occupied territory into a beach resort destination for European backpackers also does not make it legitimate.
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Yes, it's an occupied territory, and there were some stats posted a few days ago trying to show the disparity of something like 12,000 palestinians have died compared to 1,000 isrealies over the past decade to try and make the point of how one sided it is, but I imagine those stats are favorable compared to officer involved shootings and officer deaths in the US. So far in the past week we're at roughly 3,000 deaths and the count is approx 2,000 palestinians and 1,000 isrealies? It's not going to be a cleansing unless the side about to get wiped out doesn't just give up and return the hostages.
 
Any further talks re: hostages for prisoners exchange? I have not seen anything since the attacks.
 
dartsndeacs said:
Seems like they’re still voting in a group whose main goal is to kill all the Jews and take their land as their leaders. In retrospect voting for someone else would have been more productive
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It depends on how you define productive. Was it productive for Israel and the US to prop up Hamas?
 
dartsndeacs said:
Yes, it's an occupied territory, and there were some stats posted a few days ago trying to show the disparity of something like 12,000 palestinians have died compared to 1,000 isrealies over the past decade to try and make the point of how one sided it is, but I imagine those stats are favorable compared to officer involved shootings and officer deaths in the US. So far in the past week we're at roughly 3,000 deaths and the count is approx 2,000 palestinians and 1,000 isrealies? It's not going to be a cleansing unless the side about to get wiped out doesn't just give up and return the hostages.
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You do realize that they don't have to kill all the Palestinians for it to be an ethnic cleansing right?

Killing a lot of them and slowly taking more and more of the territory and expelling the Palestinians that live there (which is what they are doing), is also an ethnic cleansing.
 
plama if you are going to remain proudly ignorant of the topic please stop trying to stretch the single fact about this conflict that you know, the hostages!, into an entire point of view. The IDF has dropped 6-10 thousand bombs on Gaza in the past week, do you think that these bombs are just conveniently avoiding these hostages? Use your brain. Any number of those hostages are probably lying dead under feet of rubble.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
plama if you are going to remain proudly ignorant of the topic please stop trying to stretch the single fact about this conflict that you know, the hostages!, into an entire point of view. The IDF has dropped 6-10 thousand bombs on Gaza in the past week, do you think that these bombs are just conveniently avoiding these hostages? Use your brain. Any number of those hostages are probably lying dead under feet of rubble.
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And they'll blame Hamas for using the hostages as "human shields."
 
It's probably impossible to disentangle from Plama's trolling at this point, but when this thread flared up, it did make me think of these two posts from MDMH in the Ukraine thread.

myDeaconmyhand said:
You can refer to is as “ceding territory” or “appeasing a dictator” or use any number of phrases to describe it, but the truth is that Russia now controls that territory, and it’s extremely doubtful that the Ukrainian military is going to regain it. It’s obviously their choice to fight to the last man, but it seems pretty perverse for Americans to encourage that.
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myDeaconmyhand said:
You also risk extending the war beyond the tipping point of Ukraine having the fighters available to keep defending themselves, in which the stalemate might turn into a full-out Russian victory
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I'm not interested in gotchas, and clearly there's enough nuance between the two situations to have seemingly conflicting views. (I've learned a lot from your posts on this thread, MDMH, so please don't take it as an attack.) However, I do think there's space to have a discussion on: 1. What an occupied people facing war crimes and ethnic cleansing at the hands of a vastly-superior military power should do; 2. What those people are justified in doing; and 3. What the US's role, if any, should be in those situations.

I find myself very pro-Ukraine and also pro-Israel, albeit less so after reading the opposing viewpoints in this thread. I think the common thread there is supporting Western-aligned democracies, but it could be less savory biases dating back to or even before 9/11. There's also the chicken and egg question of whether states would be more Western-aligned if we adopted different policies towards them. Moreso with Palestine than Russia, of course.
 
OldGoldBeard said:
It's probably impossible to disentangle from Plama's trolling at this point, but when this thread flared up, it did make me think of these two posts from MDMH in the Ukraine thread.





I'm not interested in gotchas, and clearly there's enough nuance between the two situations to have seemingly conflicting views. (I've learned a lot from your posts on this thread, MDMH, so please don't take it as an attack.) However, I do think there's space to have a discussion on: 1. What an occupied people facing war crimes and ethnic cleansing at the hands of a vastly-superior military power should do; 2. What those people are justified in doing; and 3. What the US's role, if any, should be in those situations.

I find myself very pro-Ukraine and also pro-Israel, albeit less so after reading the opposing viewpoints in this thread. I think the common thread there is supporting Western-aligned democracies, but it could be less savory biases dating back to or even before 9/11. There's also the chicken and egg question of whether states would be more Western-aligned if we adopted different policies towards them. Moreso with Palestine than Russia, of course.
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It’s not a gotcha at all because I’ve never tactically supported Palestine waging an extended ground war with Israel even if they could. I’ve specifically stated that they could never achieve liberation through military force.

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OGB - I would be interested in hearing from a good faith Pro-Israel side of things beyond your good point already about supporting democracies, since most here fall on the other viewpoint.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
OGB - I would be interested in hearing from a good faith Pro-Israel side of things beyond your good point already about supporting democracies, since most here fall on the other viewpoint.
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I would be interested in hearing a good faith pro Palestinian side of things given 90% of them believe in Shaira law. How does that fit in with where this world needs to progress to ? Or is it simply just rooting for the underdog ?
 
PhDeac said:
Israel seems to be a falling democracy at this point. All those decades of support from Western democracies is going to waste.
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Yeah, Netanyahu was definitely slowly but steadily consolidating his power within the Israeli government and taking over any power sources independent of his personal control (such as the Israeli judiciary) before this started, despite considerable opposition and large-scale protests. Given how major wars have a clear tendency to increase the power of the central government, one wonders how much absolute control over the Israeli government and political system Netanyahu will have when all this finally ends, whenever that may be.
 
dartsndeacs said:
My point exactly. Maybe this has to happen this way. But both sides surrendered and that worked out best for those still alive
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This has to be the dumbest f'in thing I've ever seen posted on the Tunnels.
If the all Gaza inhabitants surrender, (I'd call them residents but it is more a zoo) you can promise them the same future that Germany and Japan now have?
Where do they sign??
 
Deacsfan27 said:
OGB - I would be interested in hearing from a good faith Pro-Israel side of things beyond your good point already about supporting democracies, since most here fall on the other viewpoint.
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I guess I should start by qualifying that, because I certainly do not believe we should be giving Israel any weapons or military aid while they're perpetrating abuses in Palestine. However, if worse came to worst and I had to pick to save one with the other being wiped off the face of the earth, I would hold my nose and choose Israel.

Pinning down the exact reasoning for that would take a lot of soul-searching, and I laid out a lot of potential factors in a longer post, but democracy and Western values come first.

The utter heinousness of the attack is another reason. In my mind, while I condemn both of them, I can see a sliver of daylight between firing a missile at a legitimate military target (or at least one that you've convinced yourself is legitimate) and killing innocent civilians and just straight-up butchering someone face-to-face at a music festival or in their home. I also see a difference between celebrating those attacks and tolerating them as a necessary (or, again, one that you've convinced yourself is necessary) evil.

Hardline laws like executing men for engaging in gay sex or pardoning rapists who marry their victims are disgusting, and create an environment ripe for human rights abuses.

Israel has never posed a threat to the United States, and acts as a partner against shared threats in the region, including providing us with intelligence in the War on Terror. Hamas is closer ideologically to ISIS and OBL than Israel is or ever will be, and I do not believe they would be inclined to cooperate in the same manner, while there's a non-zero chance they would cooperate in attacks against us.

These are just initial thoughts. It's hard. It's complicated. As Ph said, Israeli democracy appears to be failing. If that continues, then I trust my opinions will continue to shift.
 
OldGoldBeard said:
The utter heinousness of the attack is another reason. In my mind, while I condemn both of them, I can see a sliver of daylight between firing a missile at a legitimate military target (or at least one that you've convinced yourself is legitimate) and killing innocent civilians
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don’t you think it’s a handicap of perspective to begin judging “heinousness” at the music festival attack? How do the daily henious acts by IDF soldiers fit onto this scale? How do you measure the heinousness of daily living conditions in Gaza or the West Bank?

I won’t speak for you, but it’s this terrible paucity of consideration for Palestinian misery that discredits opinions like yours, where the moral accuracy of an Israeli missile is the great arbiter of justice that relieves us from judging the situation ourselves.
 
I stopped reading your post after the first paragraph; pick one culture to be wiped off the face of earth?
Hold your nose and choose Israel? What are we, savages? How can anyone even wish that happen to anyone, even in a war? But that is Israel’s intention. And that is why now matter how difficult a situation this is, no matter how horrific it’s been, on both sides, the World must insist it stop.
 
I think it’s the sliver of “trying” that gives cover to Israel. Like even though it’s clearly impossible to evacuate a million people they now can say well we warned them. Also using knock bombs before destroying infrastructure to alert civilians to leave even though the end result is destruction. Using it in contrast to what Hamas just did, even though plenty of Palestinian civilians will die, provides moral cover for attacks.
 
DeacsPop said:
I stopped reading your post after the first paragraph; pick one culture to be wiped off the face of earth?
Hold your nose and choose Israel? What are we, savages? How can anyone even wish that happen to anyone, even in a war? But that is Israel’s intention. And that is why now matter how difficult a situation this is, no matter how horrific it’s been, on both sides, the World must insist it stop.
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This shows a serious lack of reading comprehension, which is of course par for the course with you.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
don’t you think it’s a handicap of perspective to begin judging “heinousness” at the music festival attack? How do the daily henious acts by IDF soldiers fit onto this scale? How do you measure the heinousness of daily living conditions in Gaza or the West Bank?

I won’t speak for you, but it’s this terrible paucity of consideration for Palestinian misery that discredits opinions like yours, where the moral accuracy of an Israeli missile is the great arbiter of justice that relieves us from judging the situation ourselves.
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1. I don't start judging there. That's the most salient example at this time.

2. They fit into the context of undermining Israel moral superiority. The extent to which they do so is, I think, a question open to debate. I can see valid arguments that the Israelis have the upper hand morally, that the Palestinians do, or that neither does.

3. I don't read enough poetry to interpret the second half of your second paragraph.
 
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