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Stay John Collins!

Go forward Young JC! Hopefully you will prosper and kick some butt and make a good name for yourself and the Deacs in the NBA, just like Timmy D and CP3.
 
DCDeac said:
If Collins thought for a minute he might stay we'd have won by 10 tonight.

The only silver lining of this pathetic tournament exit is that our interior defense will almost certainly improve after JC's exit. Manning will have to work to replace his offensive production, but the 20 point game streak has drastically overrated Collin's value to our team.
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LOL
 
I seem to remember similar mental gymnastics from all of the same people who defended [Redacted] to the very end.
 
our defense has improved; he got that right

still unacceptable, but it's all the way up to #123 nationally after being #176 last year
 
thatguy2016 said:
our defense has improved; he got that right

still unacceptable, but it's all the way up to #123 nationally after being #176 last year
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Sure. I'm guessing much of that is due to having a rim protector at C, which Manning could have done last year.
 
Credit to WFULurker for finding that. Man, DCDeac is truly in a league of his own.
 
Ayo said:
LOL
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I enjoy your attempt to hunt down "gotcha" quotes of mine, but that one is right on the money. Wrote that before Dinos was leaving. Our front court of Dinos and Moore would absolutely have been stronger on the interior. Moore is a true rim protector and is going to blow past Collins block totals last year despite playing fewer minutes. The defensive backup to the 4 was typically Arians moving down, who had 3 blocks all year. Even with Sarr struggling on defense he's getting far more blocks and boards than that.

It's also a humorous time to post this, since the starting front court of UVA, the #2 team in the country, combined for 4 whole points last night against our "LOL" interior defense. Add the only other forward that played, Diakite, and their entire front court had 6 points on the night and didn't even shoot a free throw.

Next, try going back and re-watching Collins playing "defense" against VaTech in the ACC tourney and K State in the NCAA tourney. Even with Dinos leaving, as long as Moore is on the floor our interior defense is still better than last year.
 
Ayo said:
LOL
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DCDeac said:
I enjoy your attempt to hunt down "gotcha" quotes of mine, but that one is right on the money. Wrote that before Dinos was leaving. Our front court of Dinos and Moore would absolutely have been stronger on the interior. Moore is a true rim protector and is going to blow past Collins block totals last year despite playing fewer minutes. The defensive backup to the 4 was typically Arians moving down, who had 3 blocks all year. Even with Sarr struggling on defense he's getting far more blocks and boards than that.

It's also a humorous time to post this, since the starting front court of UVA, the #2 team in the country, combined for 4 whole points last night against our "LOL" interior defense. Add the only other forward that played, Diakite, and their entire front court had 6 points on the night and didn't even shoot a free throw.

Next, try going back and re-watching Collins playing "defense" against VaTech in the ACC tourney and K State in the NCAA tourney. Even with Dinos leaving, as long as Moore is on the floor our interior defense is still better than last year.
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dealwithitreverse.gif
 
DCDeac said:
I enjoy your attempt to hunt down "gotcha" quotes of mine, but that one is right on the money. Wrote that before Dinos was leaving. Our front court of Dinos and Moore would absolutely have been stronger on the interior. Moore is a true rim protector and is going to blow past Collins block totals last year despite playing fewer minutes. The defensive backup to the 4 was typically Arians moving down, who had 3 blocks all year. Even with Sarr struggling on defense he's getting far more blocks and boards than that.

It's also a humorous time to post this, since the starting front court of UVA, the #2 team in the country, combined for 4 whole points last night against our "LOL" interior defense. Add the only other forward that played, Diakite, and their entire front court had 6 points on the night and didn't even shoot a free throw.

Next, try going back and re-watching Collins playing "defense" against VaTech in the ACC tourney and K State in the NCAA tourney. Even with Dinos leaving, as long as Moore is on the floor our interior defense is still better than last year.
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No, I was laughing at the last part - that we "drastically" overrated Collins' value to last year's team. Yet you've spent this whole season blaming the losses of Collins and Dinos for why we're 56 spots worse in KenPom (as of now) this year. Or was it all because of the loss of Dinos since, you know, Collins' value was "drastically" overrated last year?

Your mental gymnastics abilities are second to none.
 
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I’m sure I’ve had some. The one I remember in particular is drinking the Rich Wash koolaid, but I’m sure someone could find worse
 
For the record, I hunted down those posts. It wasn't particularly hard because you are usually so sanctimonious about other people's takes that when you have an outrageous one of your own it tends to stand out. Took me <5 minutes.

ETA: Also, for the record, I just deleted a much sassier version of this post. Call it a New Years resolution to get in fewer stupid internet arguments (not sure I am doing that well so far).
 
Ayo said:
LOL
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Ayo said:
No, I was laughing at the last part - that we "drastically" overrated Collins' value to last year's team. Yet you've spent this whole season blaming the losses of Collins and Dinos for why we're 56 spots worse in KenPom (as of now) this year. Or was it all because of the loss of Dinos since, you know, Collins' value was "drastically" overrated last year?

Your mental gymnastics abilities are second to none.
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Find me one post where I said we miss Collins on defense. Pretty much all of my posts are focused on our lack of production at the 4 spot and the ridiculous assertion that Dinos wouldn't have had much impact this year. Anyone who thinks our current team's struggles are just because Collins left is drastically overrating his play last year. Dinos and Moore together would have made up for most of his scoring and been better on defense, but for many posters here his poor defense was ignored and only his scoring was valued. We were barely a tournament team and lost too early in both the ACC and NCAA tourneys, and the sad truth is he got absolutely destroyed on defense while putting up nice offensive numbers in both of those games, basically breaking even. We underachieved and barely snuck to the right side of the bubble - this year with Dinos and Sarr backing him up I think we're right back on the bubble. But we'll never know because they're both playing for millions of dollars.

To Lurker, I have no problem with you hunting down posts. Hunt for hours if you like. All the hyper negative posters who predicted we'd be horrible last year and not sniff the tournament will never say a word about how wrong they were then, but have no problem going on witch hunts to find individual posts to call out posters now - particularly anything positive - with the express purpose of mocking those Wake fans with LOL's and shitposts, not actual basketball discussion. There are hot takes left and right about how awful we'd be, but outside of the occasional "Wolford will never be a P5 QB" reference nobody who actually enjoys Wake sports would think to go digging for them.

I tend to think my "sanctimonious" posts are in response to the absurd absolutist negativity that infests this board and has coined the "miserable fucking fanbase" tag on so many threads. I probably know a dozen or so Wake fans in real life who have long since ditched these boards because of how overwhelmingly negative they are. I also know a couple Wake athletes who thought the board was absolute garbage because of all the venom spewed here. A few used to post here but they are lonnnng gone.

Anyway, enjoy your callout posts. Any time you actually want to discuss or refute something about actual basketball let me know.
 
DCDeac said:
Find me one post where I said we miss Collins on defense. Pretty much all of my posts are focused on our lack of production at the 4 spot and the ridiculous assertion that Dinos wouldn't have had much impact this year. Anyone who thinks our current team's struggles are just because Collins left is drastically overrating his play last year. Dinos and Moore together would have made up for most of his scoring and been better on defense, but for many posters here his poor defense was ignored and only his scoring was valued. We were barely a tournament team and lost too early in both the ACC and NCAA tourneys, and the sad truth is he got absolutely destroyed on defense while putting up nice offensive numbers in both of those games, basically breaking even. We underachieved and barely snuck to the right side of the bubble - this year with Dinos and Sarr backing him up I think we're right back on the bubble. But we'll never know because they're both playing for millions of dollars.

To Lurker, I have no problem with you hunting down posts. Hunt for hours if you like. All the hyper negative posters who predicted we'd be horrible last year and not sniff the tournament will never say a word about how wrong they were then, but have no problem going on witch hunts to find individual posts to call out posters now - particularly anything positive - with the express purpose of mocking those Wake fans with LOL's and shitposts, not actual basketball discussion. There are hot takes left and right about how awful we'd be, but outside of the occasional "Wolford will never be a P5 QB" reference nobody who actually enjoys Wake sports would think to go digging for them.

I tend to think my "sanctimonious" posts are in response to the absurd absolutist negativity that infests this board and has coined the "miserable fucking fanbase" tag on so many threads. I probably know a dozen or so Wake fans in real life who have long since ditched these boards because of how overwhelmingly negative they are. I also know a couple Wake athletes who thought the board was absolute garbage because of all the venom spewed here. A few used to post here but they are lonnnng gone.

Anyway, enjoy your callout posts. Any time you actually want to discuss or refute something about actual basketball let me know.
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My dad actually left the boards because of how negative they were and filled with bull shit. I might not be too far behind him, but that sucks for me because I don’t have many close friends that are Wake fans. This is the only place I get to discuss Wake sports with anyone who’s knowledgeable on the topic (some people).

I expect the boards to get more pleasant when we’re actually good again next year with everyone returning and the talent we’re adding so maybe I’ll have a reason to not leave.
 
CharlotteDeac1 said:
My dad actually left the boards because of how negative they were and filled with bull shit. I might not be too far behind him, but that sucks for me because I don’t have many close friends that are Wake fans. This is the only place I get to discuss Wake sports with anyone who’s knowledgeable on the topic (some people).

I expect the boards to get more pleasant when we’re actually good again next year with everyone returning and the talent we’re adding so maybe I’ll have a reason to not leave.
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Bruh, this is the internetz. Your best bet is when the Ajit Pai paywall kicks in and rubes won't be afford to post here anymore.

Also it's probably a leap to expect us to be "good" next year.
 
DCDeac said:
Find me one post where I said we miss Collins on defense. Pretty much all of my posts are focused on our lack of production at the 4 spot and the ridiculous assertion that Dinos wouldn't have had much impact this year. Anyone who thinks our current team's struggles are just because Collins left is drastically overrating his play last year. Dinos and Moore together would have made up for most of his scoring and been better on defense, but for many posters here his poor defense was ignored and only his scoring was valued. We were barely a tournament team and lost too early in both the ACC and NCAA tourneys, and the sad truth is he got absolutely destroyed on defense while putting up nice offensive numbers in both of those games, basically breaking even. We underachieved and barely snuck to the right side of the bubble - this year with Dinos and Sarr backing him up I think we're right back on the bubble. But we'll never know because they're both playing for millions of dollars.

To Lurker, I have no problem with you hunting down posts. Hunt for hours if you like. All the hyper negative posters who predicted we'd be horrible last year and not sniff the tournament will never say a word about how wrong they were then, but have no problem going on witch hunts to find individual posts to call out posters now - particularly anything positive - with the express purpose of mocking those Wake fans with LOL's and shitposts, not actual basketball discussion. There are hot takes left and right about how awful we'd be, but outside of the occasional "Wolford will never be a P5 QB" reference nobody who actually enjoys Wake sports would think to go digging for them.

I tend to think my "sanctimonious" posts are in response to the absurd absolutist negativity that infests this board and has coined the "miserable fucking fanbase" tag on so many threads. I probably know a dozen or so Wake fans in real life who have long since ditched these boards because of how overwhelmingly negative they are. I also know a couple Wake athletes who thought the board was absolute garbage because of all the venom spewed here. A few used to post here but they are lonnnng gone.

Anyway, enjoy your callout posts. Any time you actually want to discuss or refute something about actual basketball let me know.
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Respectfully disagree. I always enjoy/respect your posts, but Collins was sooo confident on the offensive end last year, he caused teams to essentially soley focus on stopping him. I was always concerned that our apparent fantastic offensive sets last year and offensive ratings were based not on our superior sets but almost soley on the spacing that having John Collins on the court created.

Collins regressed at the end of last year defensively, but he was a pretty good help defender in spots. The problem was that Moore simply wasn't ready to play a starting role and it seemed to be based on both strength and lungs/endurance. This year, he has learned to play through lung burn and improved his strength and conditioning. I would have loved to see Collins play extended minutes at the 4 alongside Doral as a chaser, help defender, etc... I think he would have shown moderate to dynamic improvement defensively and I think he could have truly benefited from playing extensive minutes as a 4 alongside a borderline NBA 5.

Hindsight is 20/20 but I do not think it is fair to simply predict Collins defensively last 10 games to expectations for this year. I think he would have played himself into a top-10 pick in the coming draft by playing his natural NBA position for significant chunks of his last junior season as a college player. I think we would be astronomically better as a team.
 
Ayo said:
LOL
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jaybone said:
Respectfully disagree. I always enjoy/respect your posts, but Collins was sooo confident on the offensive end last year, he caused teams to essentially soley focus on stopping him. I was always concerned that our apparent fantastic offensive sets last year and offensive ratings were based not on our superior sets but almost soley on the spacing that having John Collins on the court created.

Collins regressed at the end of last year defensively, but he was a pretty good help defender in spots. The problem was that Moore simply wasn't ready to play a starting role and it seemed to be based on both strength and lungs/endurance. This year, he has learned to play through lung burn and improved his strength and conditioning. I would have loved to see Collins play extended minutes at the 4 alongside Doral as a chaser, help defender, etc... I think he would have shown moderate to dynamic improvement defensively and I think he could have truly benefited from playing extensive minutes as a 4 alongside a borderline NBA 5.

Hindsight is 20/20 but I do not think it is fair to simply predict Collins defensively last 10 games to expectations for this year. I think he would have played himself into a top-10 pick in the coming draft by playing his natural NBA position for significant chunks of his last junior season as a college player. I think we would be astronomically better as a team.
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Just to be clear, I was definitely not making any argument about the version of Collins that would have returned to Wake this year. Completely agree that Moore would have continued to develop, Collins would have played a lot of 4, improved defensively and continued to dominate on offense.

As you say, Collins regressed defensively and at least in my mind that regression was largely responsible for 2 losses that shouldn't have happened - VaTech in the ACC tourney and then K State in the NCAA. Don't get me wrong, it was fun to finally get our name called on Selection Sunday, but we were still just a fringe bubble team - we weren't really THAT good. Plenty of people posted at the time when we beat Louisville that in the long run it was bad for the program, and considering Collins leaving likely prompted the Dinos decision, it ended up being disastrous.

Our defense is better this year with no Collins AND no Dinos. Offensively, the spread between Moore and Collins (last year version) is 9 points per game. Let's say Dinos was a 12/8 guy for us this year which isn't much of a stretch - that's 7 points better than the disaster we have at the 4 in Thompson now. So even without factoring in defense, it's a 2 point swing compared to last year, maybe push it to 4 when you factor in some minutes distribution differences. So if we're 4 points better on defense we're probably a bubble team again.

I agree that the focus on Collins helped offensive spacing, but statistically that doesn't really translate. Craw is a couple percentage point down field goal wise, Wilbekin is up, Keyshawn minus the injury game is about the same... Moore demands a lot of attention down low even if he's nowhere near as productive as Collins. At the same time, he's been dominant defensively for long stretches ever since he learned to start going vertical against guards - he just gets hurt by stretch 5's and we have zero ACC quality 4's to slide down and guard them.

If Dinos stays I think the storyline this season is another bubble year and folks are surprised that we didn't take much of step backwards with Collins leaving - even if we didn't improve. And a loaded incoming class makes the trajectory a lot clearer. Instead Dinos doesn't just leave but waits until the last second to do it, Manning panics and tries to play his most talented guys regardless of position, and we get destroyed.
 
DCDeac said:
Just to be clear, I was definitely not making any argument about the version of Collins that would have returned to Wake this year. Completely agree that Moore would have continued to develop, Collins would have played a lot of 4, improved defensively and continued to dominate on offense.

As you say, Collins regressed defensively and at least in my mind that regression was largely responsible for 2 losses that shouldn't have happened - VaTech in the ACC tourney and then K State in the NCAA. Don't get me wrong, it was fun to finally get our name called on Selection Sunday, but we were still just a fringe bubble team - we weren't really THAT good. Plenty of people posted at the time when we beat Louisville that in the long run it was bad for the program, and considering Collins leaving likely prompted the Dinos decision, it ended up being disastrous.

Our defense is better this year with no Collins AND no Dinos. Offensively, the spread between Moore and Collins (last year version) is 9 points per game. Let's say Dinos was a 12/8 guy for us this year which isn't much of a stretch - that's 7 points better than the disaster we have at the 4 in Thompson now. So even without factoring in defense, it's a 2 point swing compared to last year, maybe push it to 4 when you factor in some minutes distribution differences. So if we're 4 points better on defense we're probably a bubble team again.

I agree that the focus on Collins helped offensive spacing, but statistically that doesn't really translate. Craw is a couple percentage point down field goal wise, Wilbekin is up, Keyshawn minus the injury game is about the same... Moore demands a lot of attention down low even if he's nowhere near as productive as Collins. At the same time, he's been dominant defensively for long stretches ever since he learned to start going vertical against guards - he just gets hurt by stretch 5's and we have zero ACC quality 4's to slide down and guard them.

If Dinos stays I think the storyline this season is another bubble year and folks are surprised that we didn't take much of step backwards with Collins leaving - even if we didn't improve. And a loaded incoming class makes the trajectory a lot clearer. Instead Dinos doesn't just leave but waits until the last second to do it, Manning panics and tries to play his most talented guys regardless of position, and we get destroyed.
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Don't think it is quite fair to compare stats from this year to last year as we are only about 1/3 of our way through our ACC schedule. Let's see Craw's % at the end of the year. My guess is they are going to be much lower at the end season as to now for obvious reasons. Chill's numbers are about his improvement. But anyway, I see your point.

I think you can talk numbers all you want but you also have to factor in the fun factor. Last year, by the time we got to about game 8 and it dawned on the team they were playing with an NBA borderline lottery pick, the Wake swagger was back and we went into every game thinking we were going to win because of talent. It was nice. And it makes a huge difference to the psyche of kids. Right now, we have to be nearly perfect and honor every possession. Well, we have never honored every possession (the way Coach K led teams essentially do, hate to admit it). Not under Manning, not under the Coach who shall not be named, and not under Prosser. The last time you could argue we did was when Chill and Timmy D shared the court. Was that Coach Odom? Or the perfection of two greats? Not sure.

I am resigned to the fact that it is hard to get a college team to honor every possession (due to ego) and the best you can do is to honor every defensive possession. But it does bother me that 2 1/2 years in and Crawford is very very far away from honoring every possession - both offensively and defensively. Some of that has to be coaching, and by coaching I mean coaching intensity. I don't expect Manning to ever froth at the corners of his mouth the way Coach K does. But Jay Wright doesn't froth at the mouth either. Her's hoping that Jay Wright has perfected a system of building a team of 3+ year 4-star players who earn 30 minutes a game in their 2nd or 3rd year in the program and he doesn't NEED to do it because 80% of his minutes is allocated to elite college players with experience. And THAT is what Manning is building or trying to mimic.

But history tells me that next year we will be super talented but young and that will be our downfall and then all that youth will go play pro and we will somehow back at square 1 or square 2. Hope I am wrong.
 
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