Bball Recruiting Megathread: Devin Mitchell on campus

[OldGoldBeard]

I personally would not put 2007 or 2006 ahead of 2012 class.

Our top two players in 2006 were 25 (Skeen) and 33 (Gurley) spots higher-rated than their 2012 counterparts (CMM and Moto), our #3 player (Ish, 4-star, #17 PG) was far higher rated than Rountree (3-star, #26 SF), and our other three players (LD #26 SF, Chas #26 C, Crawford #39 PF) were all rated at their position, whereas none of our remaining 2012 players were. You can knock Crawford out of the equation, since Scout no longer ranks past #30 at each position, but that hardly tips the scales.

While I certainly hope and believe our 2012 class is underrated, the reality is that it just isn't that good on paper.

 

[simosfrostyone]

Some of you need to remember that it is completely inappropriate on a recruiting thread to talk about the guy recruiting them. I mean come on, that is totally irrelevant and out of bounds.

 

[buckets]

You're delusional. ESPN ranks our 2012 class 23rd nationally, Scout leaves us out of the top 25, and Rivals leaves us out of the top 30. Based solely on recruiting rankings, the 2012 class is absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt worse than the 2010 (McKie an co.), 2008 (AT&T), 2002 (Williams, Gray), and 1998 (ABCDE) classes, and that's only as far back as the RSCI goes. The 2007 (JJ and Teague), 2006 (Skeen, etc.), and 2003 (CP3 and co.) classes should also go ahead of it, and we haven't even reached the Childress/RoRo/Owens or Guy Morgan classes, or plenty of others from before my time.

Edit: Add the ROK class (1997?) to the list, as I recall him being a stud and we had what we thought were some solid complementary pieces in Griffin, Arinze, and the bigs.

This is what I've been saying... we're now behind where Bz started with a bigger freshman class of less heralded players expected to make up the majority of the team.

 

[Schwabber89]

Our top two players in 2006 were 25 (Skeen) and 33 (Gurley) spots higher-rated than their 2012 counterparts (CMM and Moto), our #3 player (Ish, 4-star, #17 PG) was far higher rated than Rountree (3-star, #26 SF), and our other three players (LD #26 SF, Chas #26 C, Crawford #39 PF) were all rated at their position, whereas none of our remaining 2012 players were. You can knock Crawford out of the equation, since Scout no longer ranks past #30 at each position, but that hardly tips the scales.

While I certainly hope and believe our 2012 class is underrated, the reality is that it just isn't that good on paper.

Doesn't Ari at 39 or whatever and Gurley at 33 just prove RJ's point that after about the top 25 it is a crap shoot? Ari at 39? I'll take Overton any day. I really like that we are getting big guards. It gives you a shot to create mismatches. CP3, Gray and Downey were all terriffic, but got exploited on D if we tried to play all three (as Prosser did from time to time). It will be nice to have big, strong guards.

 

[srbouch]

Doesn't Ari at 39 or whatever and Gurley at 33 just prove RJ's point that after about the top 25 it is a crap shoot? Ari at 39? I'll take Overton any day. I really like that we are getting big guards. It gives you a shot to create mismatches. CP3, Gray and Downey were all terriffic, but got exploited on D if we tried to play all three (as Prosser did from time to time). It will be nice to have big, strong guards.

No you missed OGB's point. Gurley wasn't ranked 33rd, he was ranked 33 spots higher than his counterpart in this years class. His point was that we're putting such high expectations on a class with players ranked significantly lower than classes in the past that haven't panned out the way we thought they would. It's good to be optimistic about the guys coming in but we need to be cautious as well. Let's see these guys play a few games and then we can talk about how they compare to their recruiting rankings and past players.

 

[Schwabber89]

No you missed OGB's point. Gurley wasn't ranked 33rd, he was ranked 33 spots higher than his counterpart in this years class. His point was that we're putting such high expectations on a class with players ranked significantly lower than classes in the past that haven't panned out the way we thought they would. It's good to be optimistic about the guys coming in but we need to be cautious as well. Let's see these guys play a few games and then we can talk about how they compare to their recruiting rankings and past players.

Totally agree. I just think there are a lot of reasons to be optimistic and most fans on the boards are missing it. This isn't he most talented class we've had. I just think the we have a lot of good pieces that will compliment each other.

 

[tigerswood]

I've never really heard anything about Shelton Mitchell and Reed being good friends or certainly not close to a package deal.

Have not heard any word yet on Shelton's unofficial to UNC last weekend.

 

[OldGoldBeard]

Doesn't Ari at 39 or whatever and Gurley at 33 just prove RJ's point that after about the top 25 it is a crap shoot? Ari at 39? I'll take Overton any day. I really like that we are getting big guards. It gives you a shot to create mismatches. CP3, Gray and Downey were all terriffic, but got exploited on D if we tried to play all three (as Prosser did from time to time). It will be nice to have big, strong guards.

No, picking out one or two players who failed to live up to (or who exceeded, for that matter) their ranking does not prove anything other than that the rankings are not infallible. Since 2000, our All-ACC selections have been Darius Songaila (#58 in the RSCI), Josh Howard (postgrad), Vytas (#85), Gray (#61), Eric Williams (#36), CP (#6), Visser (unranked, #25 C on Scout), JJ (#43), Teague (#58), AFA (#7), Ish (unranked, #17 PG on Scout), and Harris (unranked, #25 SG on Scout). It's further worth pointing out that none of the three unranked players reached their All-ACC level until they were juniors or seniors.

Yes, the rankings can be too high or too low for certain players, but they in general provide a pretty good indication of what you're going to get.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Doesn't Ari at 39 or whatever and Gurley at 33 just prove RJ's point that after about the top 25 it is a crap shoot? Ari at 39? I'll take Overton any day. I really like that we are getting big guards. It gives you a shot to create mismatches. CP3, Gray and Downey were all terriffic, but got exploited on D if we tried to play all three (as Prosser did from time to time). It will be nice to have big, strong guards.

Ari regressed a lot from his freshman year, at the end of that season people had high expectations for him. People's view of him is definitely skewed from his last season when he basically just stopped giving a shit. We've had so many transfers in the last couple of years, yet our fanbase makes out all of them to be bad guys individually, and ignores what they all had in common. Are you all gonna talk shit about these current players and recruits if they have problems or underachieve and transfer, or are you going to be loyal to them?

 

[ChrisL68]

Howard was a top 100 player I am almost sure.

 

[Fuck Your Couch]

Howard was a top 100 player I am almost sure.

He was not in any RSCI top 100. He may have been in some recruiting services.

 

[OldGoldBeard]

As a postgrad, Howard would not have been included in most services' top 100s. He may have been in a couple of top 100 lists prior to reclassifying, or in one of the few lists that does include postgrads afterwards, but, as FYC says, he is not in the RSCI for any year.

 

[Fusiondad10]

This is the most difficult part. We have no measurable cliff edge from which to hang from. As a fan I think we are all dying for a glimmer of hope, and there is none to be visibly seen. Wins/Losses? Returning Players? Recruiting Rankings? We basically have to trust that Bz has an innate ability to prove all historical measures of success wrong, despite the evidence that at every stop along the way he has failed to do this. It is a tough pill to swallow when you have supported (or consider yourself a part of) a program that has had massive national exposure and success over the past 2 decades. High Major teams are rarely built with under the radar recruits. Tim Duncan is the exception and not the rule. 3 stars who become big time players are so rare that if you go that route you have no room for error. Woods and Walker proved that you can miss with a 5 star, but the odds are still pretty good that if we are bringing in highly rated basketball recruits that we will become a good basketball team.

Basketball is simply too exposed of a sport for too many high major capable players to slip through the cracks. I am hoping for the best, but the outlook is tough right now. Hopefully Overton are McClinton are sleepers (I have liked some of what I have seen from McClinton) but we are fooling ourselves if we continue to bring in 3 stars and our rivals are bringing in more highly recruited players. In the end we will be playing at a severe disadvantage.

Excellent and honest as usual by Wrangor.....frankly we are wasting energy in these board discussions until the results happen on the court. Wrangor I'm sure feels like I do that he'd be satisfied to be wrong in his analysis of where we're going with Bz. But he's not naive enough to buy all the lists of excuses. Bz needs to put up some kind of palpable progress toward a stronger program. It's not always measured by your won/lost record while you're building, but it is visible. It is evident. It is NOT based on some fairy tale ranking service....on the court, in the locker room, at the practice....improvement, real improvement can be felt and seen...that's what is missing. Will we see that this year? I hope so, but to expect it to come from our freshmen class is asking alot in my opinion. Until Bz proves me wrong, it's a coaching issue.

 

[deacvision7]

I personally would not put 2007 or 2006 ahead of 2012 class. I very much liken the 2012 class to the 2006 class and like both of them very much. The 2007 class drops a bit, perhaps unfairly, because there were only 3. JJ and Teague were probably a bit higher than CMM and Moto, but the numbers put this class well ahead of 2007 in my mind. I don't think ROK was any more highly regarded than CMM, but the rest of the 2012 class clearly outweighs the ROK class. I personally love the Rodney/Trelonnie class as they put us back on the map.

The problem here is that you are over-hyping the 2012 class without any of the guys playing a minute of college basketball. You are already hyping them up to one of our top 10 classes ever. Then to prove a point you are using what the other classes actually did in college to show why the 2012 boys compare favorably; neglecting to mention that the 2012 boys haven't played even a scrimmage yet.

It's complete nonsense.

Doesn't Ari at 39 or whatever and Gurley at 33 just prove RJ's point that after about the top 25 it is a crap shoot? Ari at 39? I'll take Overton any day. I really like that we are getting big guards. It gives you a shot to create mismatches. CP3, Gray and Downey were all terriffic, but got exploited on D if we tried to play all three (as Prosser did from time to time). It will be nice to have big, strong guards.

Oh, have you seen Overton play in person before? What is your personal scouting report of him then?

 

[pegrcc9]

I've never really heard anything about Shelton Mitchell and Reed being good friends or certainly not close to a package deal.

Have not heard any word yet on Shelton's unofficial to UNC last weekend.

I don't believe it happened. I think it was rescheduled due to Roy Williams' surgery

 

[DeacHead]

I'm 99% sure Howard was a top 100 his senior year and also top 100 by rankings that included postgrads.

"Source?" you may ask. My noggin, take it or leave it.

 

[88Deac]

That makes literally no sense. JJ and Jeff were top 10 at their position and Gary Clark would be the 3rd highest ranked recruit in this class. In 2006 we had 3 top 100, 4 star recruits.

I recall a lot of question marks about JJ since he had not played very strong compeition in Wyoming. JT was highly regarded by everyone being under the microscope and succeeding in Indianapolis. Unfortunately, neither got any coaching at Wake. (If constant, gratuitous coaching digs is fair game on this thread, so be it. I'm all in. Dino had 4 NBA players and couldn't do jack with it, and many other players under him regressed. Dino was, bar none, the WORST head coach ever at Wake Forest, and that includes Staak. When he moved JT, who was performing at ACCPOY level at PG, over to SG to let an out of shape Ish, coming off injury mideason take over at PG, he totally fucked our season. I still can't get over that. Dino was a roll the balls on the court coach where we could get by in December and January, but we got streamrolled by everyone once the other teams started coming together midseason due to their coaching. Dino was an absolute disgrace as a head bball coach and, as expected, still has no coaching job because everyone who knows anything about bball knows it. Dino fucked our program for years to come, and [Redacted] is taking the heat for it. Buzz is not the right guy either, and I expect he will be canned after this season, but I am optimistic we will significantly turn it around this season. If he wins 20 games and we look pretty good, then I think he gets another year to show he is the guy.)

Back to recruiting, I take Rountree over Clark any day before either plays a minute of college bball. I look more at the stars than the position rank. I don't think position rank or overall rank is fair because it measures against the rest of that class. And I don't know what the difference between, eg., a SF7 and SF15 in 2007 is. If I had to choose between 2007 and 2012, I take the 2012 class.

 

[Colonel Angus]

We've had so many transfers in the last couple of years, yet our fanbase makes out all of them to be bad guys individually, and ignores what they all had in common

That their basketball skills were comically overrated by the recruiting "gurus"?

 

[ChrisL68]

Ish's minutes that year significantly increased starting with the ECU game, which is the beginning of the part of the year that is generally considered the time when we were playing our best basketball.

Win over BYU? 26 minutes
Win over UNC? 24 minutes

Of course he only played 19 minutes in the loss at GT, which most agree was the beginning of our poor play.

I seem to remember you from the old board is a big Dino critic. Now that the change you were clamoring for has turned out to be a disaster so far, then just blame it on Dino.

 

[RacerDeac]

High Major teams are rarely built with under the radar recruits. Tim Duncan is the exception and not the rule. 3 stars who become big time players are so rare that if you go that route you have no room for error. Woods and Walker proved that you can miss with a 5 star, but the odds are still pretty good that if we are bringing in highly rated basketball recruits that we will become a good basketball team.

Basketball is simply too exposed of a sport for too many high major capable players to slip through the cracks.

That's the issue. What works in football for a coach like Grobe, where teams are much bigger in number, there are no AAU's, and where guys are literally still "growing" into their rolls and often take a 5th year to do so, has no correlation to basketball. Besides, we want to be elite and Top 5 in a good year of basketball, which is quite different from Top 25 in football in a good year.

I've asked about four or five national writers what the difference between a guy ranked #40 and one ranked number #120, they laughed or said something like "I don't know".

OMG! You know FOUR OR FIVE NATIONAL WRITERS?!?

Also, the answer is 80.