• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Economics & Trade

JuiceCrewAllStar said:
we do almost all 100% permanent supportive housing, so it's definitely a different game than what I imagine you're building

in addition to building more non-residential space for services, we also get a lot of money triggering Davis Bacon and state prevailing wage


only way I can see you guys building 66 units for $10 million is if you have design and construction in house and are taking haircuts at every turn to make money on the aggregate
Click to expand...
Yep, pretty much everything triggers Davis Bacon, Section 3, and MWBE now, which are all a fucking shitshow and a large portion prices are going through the roof.

And yes, construction in-house, captive architect, and property management in-house. I honestly think that is the only way to make it work on a large scale in the current environment. We have a sitework director in house, but we've been trying for years to find full civil and survey to bring captive. That is currently our biggest controllable development delay.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
there are definitely government agencies that are understaffed though -- varies a lot by location and level of government, but it's not crazy to say that many places are understaffed

and they're definitely underpaid -- a big element of getting what you pay for with the competency of some of these folks
Click to expand...
Yes, absolutely - DOT, DEQ, HUD/RD/USDA, those are all significantly understaffed. I was referring to local small town/county, which in my experience are fine.
 
Just had my entire sewage line replaced and it took 7 days for an inspector to come out and look at the new plumbing work and 8-9 days for an inspector to come out to check out the new electrical work. I wish 2&2 was right about inspections taking 1-2 days would have been nice to have my driveway back a week earlier.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Yep, pretty much everything triggers Davis Bacon, Section 3, and MWBE now, which are all a fucking shitshow and a large portion prices are going through the roof.

And yes, construction in-house, captive architect, and property management in-house. I honestly think that is the only way to make it work on a large scale in the current environment. We have a sitework director in house, but we've been trying for years to find full civil and survey to bring captive. That is currently our biggest controllable development delay.
Click to expand...
i imagine you do some senior housing work, which is lower cost across the board

our projects only need like six funding sources to pencil -- takes for fucking ever, but there's also a ton more money for homeless housing than others -- and almost all our buildings are fully operationally subsidized and we more often than not have no hard debt
 
Just got an email from a developer who is building townhomes in a very transitional area less than 1.25 miles from Uptown at a land price of almost $93K per door. Townhomes under construction around the corner are selling for $550K to $750K each with a land price from 12/2021 of $48K per door. This area was extremely affordable 15 years ago and could have been developed with more affordable stuff even 5 years ago, and there is some of that in the area. Obviously this is not an affordable or for rent product, but goes to show how impossible it is to build affordable without a gov't program.
 
plus 8% interest on debt now

and I haven't toured any of these new townhomes like that, but so many of these new construction projects use pretty crummy finishes to get them to $550k
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
plus 8% interest on debt now

and I haven't toured any of these new townhomes like that, but so many of these new construction projects use pretty crummy finishes to get them to $550k
Click to expand...

The one selling now has an offer for sub-5% financing on the website, so I don't know if they're bankrolling that themselves or have a PE partner willing to take a safe return. They've got a decent reputation as a developer though. The colored accent panels really sell it.

1706284519377.png
 
a real shame in the effort to build housing cheap enough for people to afford is that modern residential architecture is just so shitty now

and all that hardieplank siding looks like it might last 25 years tops


feels like anything built in the last 10 years has a significantly lower chance of being around -- much less looking good -- in 40 years than the stuff built 100 years ago
 
Yeah, and for some reason planners want that shit rather than a solid brick face. It won't age well.

But if you're building a two-story parking deck under 5 stories of stick built apartments in a growing area, you can tear it down in 30 years and build a steel high rise.
 
Just read a rezoning application comment from staff where the tree survey included a power pole. It is literally the only thing on the site resembling a tree.

1706286028046.png
 
Deacfan2009 said:
Just had my entire sewage line replaced and it took 7 days for an inspector to come out and look at the new plumbing work and 8-9 days for an inspector to come out to check out the new electrical work. I wish 2&2 was right about inspections taking 1-2 days would have been nice to have my driveway back a week earlier.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I may need to clarify. I'm not talking about a single family repair/improvement inspection, as that is not relevant to this discussion. That is the lowest on their priority list. We do get preferential treatment in that regard. If you have called that in, and then we call him, he is coming to us first in most cases. And before you say that is unfair, by that point we've usually paid them a few hundred thousand in various fees on the project for that privilege, or expanded the town's sewer line for them gratis, or added a lift station to their system, or added turn lane to their road, or something similar.
 
They are putting up townhouses near me. 85 ish units. Each unit is two stories of a four story structure (downstairs has a garage) I'd guess about 1200 sq ft max. starting at 500k.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
i imagine you do some senior housing work, which is lower cost across the board

our projects only need like six funding sources to pencil -- takes for fucking ever, but there's also a ton more money for homeless housing than others -- and almost all our buildings are fully operationally subsidized and we more often than not have no hard debt
Click to expand...
We do senior on occasion. It is good for smaller sites but there are other compounding factors. One foundation and one roof, which is good, but FHA requires elevators in those designs which adds initial cost and ongoing maintenance. NCHFA's LIHTC scoring also inadvertently disfavors seniors to a degree that they are trying to rectify, but haven't quite yet.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Sorry, I may need to clarify. I'm not talking about a single family repair/improvement inspection, as that is not relevant to this discussion. That is the lowest on their priority list. We do get preferential treatment in that regard. If you have called that in, and then we call him, he is coming to us first in most cases. And before you say that is unfair, by that point we've usually paid them a few hundred thousand in various fees on the project for that privilege, or expanded the town's sewer line for them gratis, or added a lift station to their system, or added turn lane to their road, or something similar.
Click to expand...

Oh okay. So they are not understaffed as long as you have priority and get moved to the top of the list anytime you need anything. Got it!
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
a real shame in the effort to build housing cheap enough for people to afford is that modern residential architecture is just so shitty now

and all that hardieplank siding looks like it might last 25 years tops


feels like anything built in the last 10 years has a significantly lower chance of being around -- much less looking good -- in 40 years than the stuff built 100 years ago
Click to expand...
The other long-term compounding factor on unit lifespan is emotional support animals. A lot of these affordable properties were originally designed as pet-free, but now you basically are prohibited from denying ESA requests. Get something bogus online saying you need one, and in comes Fido. They tear the shit out of the carpets and most other flooring, as well as the walls and landscaping, which blows up unit turnover costs. We've had to go to LVP because of the dogs, which has its own issues with cross-unit noise. Not saying ESAs are right or wrong, but they are another thing that is driving up costs in the affordable class via regulation.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
The other long-term compounding factor on unit lifespan is emotional support animals. A lot of these affordable properties were originally designed as pet-free, but now you basically are prohibited from denying ESA requests. Get something bogus online saying you need one, and in comes Fido. They tear the shit out of the carpets and most other flooring, as well as the walls and landscaping, which blows up unit turnover costs. We've had to go to LVP because of the dogs, which has its own issues with cross-unit noise. Not saying ESAs are right or wrong, but they are another thing that is driving up costs in the affordable class via regulation.
Click to expand...
well carpet is gross and terrible so if they're moving you away from carpet then the animals are doing some good
 
Biff Tannen said:
Yeah, and for some reason planners want that shit rather than a solid brick face. It won't age well.

But if you're building a two-story parking deck under 5 stories of stick built apartments in a growing area, you can tear it down in 30 years and build a steel high rise.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we are dealing with one municipality who wants decorative returns with siding to create contrast as opposed to full brick. Makes minimal sense and adds no living space.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top