In Response to Caturday's claims on the $250k thread...

[Stan Gable]

Do you live in NY? I live in Brooklyn, and have for a very long time in three neighborhoods all over the borough. Lived in Queens, too, but only for about six months. This is 2012. There are more safe places to raise a family than unsafe places to raise a family in NYC...

What are these dangerous neighborhoods?

I have lived in NYC for 12 years. Almost bought a place in Brooklyn last year. Are you saying Brooklyn is cheap?

Safe doesn't always mean crime. I'm sure the real estate next to the BQE, Atlantic and Flatbush avenue is affordable. But since you asked, Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Bay Ridge, Harlem, Jamaica, The Bronx, Bed Stuy, are not places you would want to raise a family in if you had a choice.

 

[Stan Gable]

When you talk about middle class, you are talking about defining a group out of all people....not just people who have good jobs and live in safe areas. It's not just the middle part of the top group. If you know nothing about how to define such a group, you should probably stop talking about it....because if you think that $250K per year is middle class, in any damned place in the country, you are full of shit...just like Caturday.

Fuck off you communist. I already said 250k a year isn't middle class in the other thread.

 

[Strickland33]

I have lived in NYC for 12 years. Almost bought a place in Brooklyn last year. Are you saying Brooklyn is cheap?

If a household makes $250k/year and is responsible, then there are plenty of affordable places to live.

So, you can't live in Dumbo, Cobble Hill, or Brooklyn Heights (or parts of Williamsburg and Carroll Garden) - so what. There are plenty of amazing options with arguably the same amenities (schools, parks, housing stock, retail/dining, accessible transportation, etc.).

There is affordable real estate (which in chic Brooklyn <~$1 million) in Carroll Garden, Park Slope, Windsor Terrace, Prospect Park South/Ditmas Park, Greenpoint, and even sections of south Flatbush. I'm not sure if Prospect Heights or Williamsburg meet your safe critieria, but both of those sections have witnessed an influx of middle class families and capital.

In fact, most of "South Brooklyn" - Midwood and Bay Ridge being the two most accessible to Manhattan - are where most longtime middle class families live and have lived for generations. (but see below for a better conversation on this)

Safe doesn't always mean crime.

Then, what does it mean? As you can see above, I wouldn't call places like Williamsburg, Long Island City, Prospect Heights or even Red Hook safe even though they're well above middle class 'hoods in my book.

Some hoods are identity-safe, meaning if you're like everyone else they're probably really safe, such as Brighton Beach, Flushing, Harlem, Inwood, Richmond Hill, etc.), but even those places are probably safe across the board for incoming middle class families. Just as safe as, say, the East or West Village, Chinatown, Chelsea, Hell's Kitchen, etc. in Manhattan, which are actually higher crime hoods than most of the places I'll mention, if my memory serves me correct.

I'm sure the real estate next to the BQE, Atlantic and Flatbush avenue is affordable. But since you asked, Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Bay Ridge, Harlem, Jamaica, The Bronx, Bed Stuy, are not places you would want to raise a family in if you had a choice.

1. How is Bay Ridge unsafe?

2. Coney Island, Jamaica, and Bed Stuy are all more-or-less slums, but there are some notable exceptions of middle classness (Stuyvesant Heights in West Bed Stuy, Jamaica Heights near St. John's and Seagate in Coney Island). Brighton Beach is actually really safe, even more so if you're Russian or Eastern European (former Soviet).

Those are probably not great places for new-to-NY $250k earners to raise families, though, so you're right.

Bay Ridge does not deserve to be grouped into that list... I'm not sure if you've ever been, but it's about as nice as Brooklyn neighborhoods come.

Lots of nouveau riche young families have not only moved to Bay Ridge, as I've written above, but also to other south Brooklyn neighborhoods like Ditmas, Midwood, and Mill Basin.

I know you know this, but it should be said that there are lots of neighborhoods in the Bronx, a few of which have become havens for new middle class families who are priced out of Manhattan such as Riverdale, Parkchester [on Bronx Park], and Co-Op City. So, in fact middle class families who want space, good schools, and a safe community do occasionally choose to live in the Bronx, but I digress. Same goes for Harlem and Washington Heights. Lots of very nice middle class communities on the West Sides of both of those neighborhoods that have been strengthened via gentrification, etc.

In Queens, Sunnyside, Jackson Heights, Astoria, Forest Hills, Rego Park, and most of the Eastern Park of Queens county (from Flushing to Nassau Co.) are pretty awesome places to lead a middle class life. I'd include the Rockaway Peninsula (from the 80s over) in this, but that place got demolished during Sandy and likely won't be back for awhile, despite being inhabited by some of the more affluent communities in NYC. Furthermore, Southeast Queens (the JFK neighborhoods) are some of the most stable historical middle class black communities in the country.

Where do you live? (Also, where were you looking in BK). I'm in south "Victorian" Flatbush. Lots of new middle class families and money around these parts and it's been that way for a very long time.

 

[Strickland33]

I saw some of his posts on the other thread, but I thought it was just Caturday being Caturday. Didn't he post that it takes a while to commute from Brooklyn to Manhattan? Was that not just trolling?

I guarantee you that my commute is shorter than his. I live in pretty deep into Brooklyn (near the college) and I make it to my job in 30 minutes on a bad day...

 

[Strickland33]

Median is 66k. Mean is badly skewed by people like John Paulson.

http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces...iew.xhtml?pid=ACS_11_1YR_S1903&prodType=table

And this.

 

[TownieDeac]

Notice Caturday is conspicuously absent since posting those things. He's just trollolololing all the way to the bank.

 

[DeaconBrews]

Stop quoting this vaguely educated hippy moron with a shitty DIY blog like he is an authority on anything. We are happy you found some fellow spam eating compatriot.

You realize that you are like eveyone's mom and grandmom who says, "Well the guy down at the Verizon store told me....." and then rattles off some completely untrue nonsense that some community college dropout just told them. That is you now.

Give it a rest.

So you're saying "Mr. Money Mustache" isn't a reliable source?

 

[siff]

lol at anyone outside of NYC discussing the real cost of living.

Housing is the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Lectro]

Notice Caturday is conspicuously absent since posting those things. He's just trollolololing all the way to the bank.

Well, frankly, with Twin Ben and Stan G showing Olivebongwater the working end of a twelve guage there isn't much left to show up for...

Hell, those boys took care of Bobcommie and several other clay pigeons with the overspray.

Well done lads.

 

[BarcaDeac]

Well, frankly, with Twin Ben and Stan G showing Olivebongwater the working end of a twelve guage there isn't much left to show up for...

Hell, those boys took care of Bobcommie and several other clay pigeons with the overspray.

Well done lads.

Classy post given what happened in CT

 

[ConnorEl]

Of course, it's all relative.

I wouldn't want to live on 40k in W-S now, much less 40k-60k in NYC. Married with kids. Now, as a single gent with lots of time ahead, I could do it easy in W-S and probably in (around) NYC.

No doubt 250k gets you much more in W-S than NYC. But I'm confident a sane person could get their family by on such an income in either place with little trouble, barring uncommon calamities.

In general, it's just smart to live below your means. Doing so will mean different things depending on your situation. But I imagine that most everyone could do this with an annual income of 250k if they have any sense at all. Sure, you could always do more and live "better" with more.

 

[buckets]

these threads are ridiculous. you guys are killing the american dream.

 

[PhillyDeac]

NYC and San Francisco aside, yes, you should be fine on $250k.

But for those of you talking about housing, that is just ONE aspect of those 2 cities where your dollar gets squeezed. And if you want to buy a house in those areas, what cost you $200,000 in W-S region, cost you $1million in NYC and SF.

Didn't read the thread where this topic initially came from, so I apologize if this is off base.

 

[RJKarl]

these threads are ridiculous. you guys are killing the american dream.

How is anyone "killing the American Dream" on these threads?

You are sounding like Dodo and Lectro.

 

[Stan Gable]

If a household makes $250k/year and is responsible, then there are plenty of affordable places to live.

So, you can't live in Dumbo, Cobble Hill, or Brooklyn Heights (or parts of Williamsburg and Carroll Garden) - so what. There are plenty of amazing options with arguably the same amenities (schools, parks, housing stock, retail/dining, accessible transportation, etc.).

There is affordable real estate (which in chic Brooklyn <~$1 million) in Carroll Garden, Park Slope, Windsor Terrace, Prospect Park South/Ditmas Park, Greenpoint, and even sections of south Flatbush. I'm not sure if Prospect Heights or Williamsburg meet your safe critieria, but both of those sections have witnessed an influx of middle class families and capital.

In fact, most of "South Brooklyn" - Midwood and Bay Ridge being the two most accessible to Manhattan - are where most longtime middle class families live and have lived for generations. (but see below for a better conversation on this)



Then, what does it mean? As you can see above, I wouldn't call places like Williamsburg, Long Island City, Prospect Heights or even Red Hook safe even though they're well above middle class 'hoods in my book.

Some hoods are identity-safe, meaning if you're like everyone else they're probably really safe, such as Brighton Beach, Flushing, Harlem, Inwood, Richmond Hill, etc.), but even those places are probably safe across the board for incoming middle class families. Just as safe as, say, the East or West Village, Chinatown, Chelsea, Hell's Kitchen, etc. in Manhattan, which are actually higher crime hoods than most of the places I'll mention, if my memory serves me correct.



1. How is Bay Ridge unsafe?

2. Coney Island, Jamaica, and Bed Stuy are all more-or-less slums, but there are some notable exceptions of middle classness (Stuyvesant Heights in West Bed Stuy, Jamaica Heights near St. John's and Seagate in Coney Island). Brighton Beach is actually really safe, even more so if you're Russian or Eastern European (former Soviet).

Those are probably not great places for new-to-NY $250k earners to raise families, though, so you're right.

Bay Ridge does not deserve to be grouped into that list... I'm not sure if you've ever been, but it's about as nice as Brooklyn neighborhoods come.

Lots of nouveau riche young families have not only moved to Bay Ridge, as I've written above, but also to other south Brooklyn neighborhoods like Ditmas, Midwood, and Mill Basin.

I know you know this, but it should be said that there are lots of neighborhoods in the Bronx, a few of which have become havens for new middle class families who are priced out of Manhattan such as Riverdale, Parkchester [on Bronx Park], and Co-Op City. So, in fact middle class families who want space, good schools, and a safe community do occasionally choose to live in the Bronx, but I digress. Same goes for Harlem and Washington Heights. Lots of very nice middle class communities on the West Sides of both of those neighborhoods that have been strengthened via gentrification, etc.

In Queens, Sunnyside, Jackson Heights, Astoria, Forest Hills, Rego Park, and most of the Eastern Park of Queens county (from Flushing to Nassau Co.) are pretty awesome places to lead a middle class life. I'd include the Rockaway Peninsula (from the 80s over) in this, but that place got demolished during Sandy and likely won't be back for awhile, despite being inhabited by some of the more affluent communities in NYC. Furthermore, Southeast Queens (the JFK neighborhoods) are some of the most stable historical middle class black communities in the country.

Where do you live? (Also, where were you looking in BK). I'm in south "Victorian" Flatbush. Lots of new middle class families and money around these parts and it's been that way for a very long time.

You make some valid points and this is way more in depth than I am willing to get. I appreciate your response. Lets kust agree that 250k for a family of 4 is not easy to live on in many places. The more affordable the real estate, the greater likelihood that you will have to send your kids to private schools. Thats where it can get really expensive.

I've looked to buy in Brooklyn Heights, Dumbo, Carrol Gardens, Cobble Hill and Park Slope. Made an offer on a place but glad we didn't go to contract. Not ready to live outside of Manhttan still single. I now live on the UWS on Riverside Park bc I can't justify dropping 5k on rent for a 1 br downtown.

 

[dartsndeacs]

How does the median family get by on 40k per year then? The median household in NYC is $48,631. That means millions of families are living on $40k/year or less. How do they do it? I don't really know. Maybe they commute, maybe they live in 2 bedroom apts, maybe they don't live in the priciest areas. But they do it, and the stats show that it is possible. But even if a $250k family thinks spending $40k/year is below them, and they want to double it do spending $80k/year after-taxes they will still end up very wealthy. Surely no one is arguing that you can't raise a family in NYC on $80k/year after-tax?

"Household income is not to be confused with family or personal income. Household income is often the combination of two income earners pooling the resources and should therefore not be confused with an individual's earnings. Even though the term family income may sometimes be used as a synonym for household income, the U.S. Census Bureau defines the two differently. While household income takes all households into account, family income only takes households with two or more persons related through blood, marriage or adoption into account."

Fairly sure a household includes the kid fresh out of college living in a studio, although not entirely sure.

 

[buckets]

NYC is the worst example for trying to figure a reasonable cost of living. People make $40k a year and figure out ways to live awesome lives and others make $500k a year and are miserable and broke.