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Israel Attacked and its Response

dartsndeacs said:
alright, beheadings is questionable, but we're all in agreement they're kidnapping grandmothers? Cause I've seen that video. And that there's 20 americans?
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Look, it's terrible enough without having to stretch the truth to make it more terrible.

Pray for Israel and Palestine, and for cooler heads, as unlikely as they might be, to prevail.
 
ConnorEl said:
Yeah, I think Biden is mainly trying to deflect criticism that he’s not adequately pro-Israel.

He did sort of encourage Israel to respect international law.
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While we‘re all inclined to think about domestic political angles, seems to me Biden’s address was primarily directed at some folks who live in Tehran.

I.e. - we’ll give the Israeli’s whatever they need to defend themselves roughly translates to you better think about the potential knock on effects before you ask Hezbollah to open up another ground front up North. It isn’t a coincidence that the Israeli armed forces said earlier today all options would be on the table if Hezbollah made it a two front war.

He’s putting that out there trying to keep this from becoming a broader conflict.
 
Yeah that’s… I don’t know what the fuck they were thinking with that one, that’s really bad
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
That’s plausible. Saber rattling is all the rage
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Wish I felt confident it would end with saber rattling (and I‘m not referring to us but two other nations).

What was it a week ago the Iranian ”supreme leader” tacitly threatened anyone who moved to normalize relations with Israel and called for the annihilation of the state? Then the attack happens. And then Netanyahu says Israel will “remake the Middle East”. And Hezbollah starts lobbing in some shells from Lebanon. Feels like all that can still come off the rails.

Biden gets to talk to Netanyahu directly to try and keep him from jumping off whatever Iran ledge Netanyahu’s statement might imply more broadly. He only gets to talk to Iran indirectly. Note the US has been careful not to openly link Iran to the attack (as if Hamas can stockpile 5,000 missiles without support from somewhere). And Iran today said they had nothing to do with the attack. Trying to signal daylight?

Just praying that potential for any direct exchange between Israel and Iran comes off the boil bc that could really get dicey for the entire world.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
One of the reasons that “fog of war” propaganda is so effective is because questioning the details of a tragedy is very callous and unpopular.
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These techniques (hasbara) have books written about them. Misinformation, spread to media, completely broadened into popular conception/truth, then recanted too late for it to matter.

What it says mostly is that so many are willing to accept at face value that someone might be capable of such atrocities, generally simply because of a race, ethnicity or religion
 
Excellent interview with the former Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Olmert - mentions that it is a failure of arrogance that these attacks were allowed to happen, later mentions that were he the current PM he doesn’t think these attacks ever would have happened because he would have already been negotiating with Palestinian leadership to pull out of the territories. Wow, I wasn’t expecting that. Someone who knows better can tell me if he is full of shit.

www.channel4.com

Hamas attacks ‘outcome of the arrogance’ of Netanyahu government, says former Israeli PM

He told us that the failure to see the assault coming was down to the arrogance of the current government.
www.channel4.com www.channel4.com
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Excellent interview with the former Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Olmert - mentions that it is a failure of arrogance that these attacks were allowed to happen, later mentions that were he the current PM he doesn’t think these attacks ever would have happened because he would have already been negotiating with Palestinian leadership to pull out of the territories. Wow, I wasn’t expecting that. Someone who knows better can tell me if he is full of shit.

www.channel4.com

Hamas attacks ‘outcome of the arrogance’ of Netanyahu government, says former Israeli PM

He told us that the failure to see the assault coming was down to the arrogance of the current government.
www.channel4.com www.channel4.com
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I haven’t listened, and please don’t take this (or anything else I’ve posted) as suggesting Israel deserve what happened with recent Hamas attacks. Netanyahu had an opportunity with Abbas and Fatah, political rivals to Hamas pre Unity Government, to make some reasonable concessions that would have eased tensions. Netanyahu’s position was that any easing of the blockade would have opened the door to potential attacks. It doesn’t help that Abbas is credibly accused of being a Holocaust denier.

There are decades of good faith negotiation at lower levels of govt between parties in Israel and Palestine, going back before Camp David, that always get derailed by one lunatic or another.
 
a formative essay for me on the issue is Adam Shatz's in LRB about Israel as an apartheid state from 2021

this paragraph seems pertinent to the current situation

Privately, Netanyahu and the Israeli army have always had an interest in keeping Hamas in power in Gaza. Israel allowed the movement to flourish in its early years as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the PLO. Hamas’s rule in Gaza kept the Palestinians divided, and Palestinian political fragmentation has always been a key Israeli objective. Several Israeli pundits have suggested that Netanyahu deliberately provoked Hamas in order to prevent his opponents from establishing a governing coalition. Israel has had four elections in two years, and if he fails to hold on to power, he could face corruption charges and a prison term. In the lead-up to Hamas’s rocket barrage, he pursued a series of flagrantly reckless policies: closing off the plaza outside the Damascus Gate during Eid – Muslim families gather there to celebrate the end of the fast – and violently raiding the prayer rooms of the mosque itself. Oppression alone seldom detonates revolt; humiliation – what the Algerians call hogra – is also necessary. Netanyahu supplied it in abundance. As soon as Hamas responded to the provocations in Jerusalem, the right-wing politician Naftali Bennett, of the Orthodox Zionist party Yamina, pulled out of talks to form an anti-Netanyahu coalition. Yair Lapid, another Netanyahu opponent (centrist by Israeli standards, right-wing by any other), praised the military campaign. On Israeli television, Ariel Sharon’s son explained what he considered the appropriate response to rocket fire from Gaza: ‘You strangle them. No water, no electricity, no food, no gas, no medical treatments. Nothing.’ Ayman Abu al-Ouf, the head of the Covid-19 response team at Gaza’s largest hospital, was among the victims.
and this one

For a growing number of Americans on the left, especially young people, Israel is seen not as a democracy but as a brutal and racist ethnocracy. Radicalised by the Black Lives Matter movement, and sensitive to questions of racial privilege, white supremacy and state violence, they find it impossible to defend a state founded on what B’Tselem calls ‘Jewish supremacy’. Jewish structural supremacy over the state and its resources, which has always existed, is now enshrined by the 2018 Basic Law. In the words of the law, ‘the right to exercise national self-determination in the state of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.’ (Netanyahu’s father, Benzion, put it more bluntly in 2012: ‘This land is Jewish, it is not for the Arabs. There is no place here for the Arabs, and there will be no place for them.’) The presence of Palestinians is merely tolerated and generally ignored, as though they were ghosts in the land: this is the reality of the ‘coexistence’ whose sudden unravelling has been lamented in the last few weeks.
 
Do they at least talk to the pro-Palestinian protestors?
 
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