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Israel Attacked and its Response

the biggest problem with israel/zionism is how it's perceived in the muslim arab world, as a fourth crusade. I tend to agree with that characterization. Maybe it is true that Jews needed their own state. where we decided to put it was obviously religiously motivated.

The western, largely xtian, populations of the world don't want muslims in control of jerusalem, even though historically they have more often than not allowed pilgrims into the city unharassed.
 
beatrix said:
wow.
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wow what? Without the Arabs tensions would be greatly reduced too. :noidea: But the thread is about Israel and why we support them. This notion that you can't say one bad thing about Israel or you are some kind of traitor is ridiculous. I'm Jewish, I've lost relatives at the hands of anti-Semites, I'm American and I have lost countrymen at the hands of Arab terrorists, I get it. That doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to the bullshit my people are pulling in Israel. I can separate the two. I think there are some incorrigible Arabs in Palestine and incorrigible Muslims throughout the ME, too.

But my point remains. Until Arabs, at least within Israel, receive equal treatment vis a vis land ownership, marriage, resources, etc. (like their constitution states) and the settlements stop there is going to be tension in the ME and the dangerous actors int he region will have impetus to arm and train violent jihadists against the Zionists. You take that away and you take the wind out of their sails. The reasonable, moderate voices in the region will take over.

I don't see the reason for your surprise at all.
 
RJKarl said:
Edit, then advanced

Israel has been buffer in the region for over half a century. First they kept the USSR out. Now they give us lots of intel about the Arab nations.

We give a fuck, because without them, we'd have to be far more involved.
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Without them, we could probably have normal business relations with nearly every nation in the region, and, thus, virtually eliminate Islamic terrorism as a threat to US citizens.

I'm not saying that the US should abandon Israel, but the reason we don't is primarily moral and cultural, not political. Politically, Israel causes us vastly more problems than it solves. Real talk.
 
ArlingtonDeac said:
Without them, we could probably have normal business relations with nearly every nation in the region, and, thus, virtually eliminate Islamic terrorism as a threat to US citizens.

I'm not saying that the US should abandon Israel, but the reason we don't is primarily moral and cultural, not political. Politically, Israel causes us vastly more problems than it solves. Real talk.
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These aren't mutually exclusive. The Americans who sympathize with Israel morally and culturally give political money and have political clout.
 
PhDeac said:
That brings up something I hadn't really thought about. The bolded logic isn't new although Israel is relatively new. So why did it take so long for the US to get involved against Nazis during the Holocaust?
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We didn't really know too much about the true nature of the Holocaust until we stumbled into the camps. If you're less forgiving, it's still fair to say that no one anticipated the Holocaust until it was underway, at which point we were already doing our best to defeat the Germans.

Israel wasn't a hot button point of military contention until after WWII. It was still a (relatively) open region. The creation of Israel changed everything.
 
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Deacon923 said:
There is quite a bit of historical dispute on this point, but the general consensus is that although everyone knew Adolf hated Jews, nobody really had a clue as to the scale of the atrocities until mid-1944, and the complete scale of the horror was not truly known until the Soviets liberated Auschwitz I believe in late 1944/early 1945. Remember that the death camps were mostly in Poland, far behind enemy lines, there were no satellites, little on the ground intel, and most of Poland was out of range of recon planes which were needed for other duties anyway.

Also remember that in 1939, anti-Semitism was acceptable in polite society in America. There were plenty of people in high positions in the US in 1939 who thought Hitler was on the right track. The British thought of the Zionists in Palestine as a bunch of terrorists and trouble makers who were stirring up the Arabs that the British had been allied with for many years.
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This is much better said than my passing post. Pos rep.
 
WakeandBake said:
These aren't mutually exclusive. The Americans who sympathize with Israel morally and culturally give political money and have political clout.
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I agree. When I said it's not political, I didn't mean that politics aren't involved. I was more referring to the motivations of those driving a political process that seems to want to give Israel a blank check, which operates against our political better interests.
 
In July 1914, Germany gave a blank check to the Habsburg Empire, their junior partner, and that did not work out too well for them, or for much of anybody else for that matter.
 
WakeandBake said:
wait, I think you're mocking me. :(
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Not at all. It's just that you and others need to understand that the Muslims and their allies very much want to control the narrative. Making the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the "key to Middle East peace" is a way to divert attention from other matters. Why does the "Middle East peace process" always refer to that situation? Was that term ever used when Iraq and Iran were at war with each other?
 
The oil is pretty much it, as far as practical reasons go. The Israeli lobby puts up a lot of money to help Israel and that distorts the picture in domestic politics. Oh, there are a few nice tourist places there but every continent has those. So, the Middle East gets attention because of it's oil and the willingness of the American Jewish community to support Israel lavishly. One could argue that the availability of oil is a national security issue, it is; but the security of Israel is not.
 
Okay, I get it. Most pols would be fairer to the Muslims over there but are bought off by the all-powerful Israeli lobby. The pols really don't believe their own words.
 
Why is the GOP so obsessed with supporting Israel? I don't understand the overwhelming support from a large number of fundamental Christians towards Jewish people. Is it because they are viewed as a better alternative than Muslims and the GOP conservative base feels like we have to have our hand in the pot that is the Middle East? I really have no idea. It's never really made sense to me and I guess I've just always written it off as racism towards Arabs/Muslims and as a financial perk since there are a large number of wealthy Jewish financiers/elite who contribute politically.
 
"Why is the GOP so obsessed with supporting Israel?"

It's funny because Pubs get zero percent of the Jewish vote...
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Why is the GOP so obsessed with supporting Israel? I don't understand the overwhelming support from a large number of fundamental Christians towards Jewish people. Is it because they are viewed as a better alternative than Muslims and the GOP conservative base feels like we have to have our hand in the pot that is the Middle East? I really have no idea. It's never really made sense to me and I guess I've just always written it off as racism towards Arabs/Muslims and as a financial perk since there are a large number of wealthy Jewish financiers/elite who contribute politically.
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Actually much of the Fundamentalist Christian support of Israel is based in End of Days theory. They think the second coming is predicated on what happens to Israel.
 
Do the Republicans know Israel has gay marriage and women in combat and a big welfare state? You'd think the liberals would be all over that.
 
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