• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Israel Attacked and its Response

Fo all you people with facts and certainty about that hospital explosion, NPR presented an honest assessment of what we know and what we don't know this morning.


Useful takeaways: the explosion was largely contained to the parking lot and outside the hospital, the explosion was quite a bit smaller than your typical Israeli missile but burned very hot, lots of people were outside the hospital sleeping in cars and on the ground thinking it would be safer and less likely to get bombed than apartment buildings or really anywhere else in Gaza so the 500 death count is possible.
 
neither the Israeli or Palestinian people deserve any of this shit and this war is despicable regardless of who is to blame.
Hamas won a national election with a plurality in 2006 based on a platform of change - the PA/PLO had been in power for decades and hadn’t made satisfactory progress towards Palestinian liberation or the right to return for Palestinian refugees, while many Palestinians viewed the PA as collaborators or concessionaires to Israel for their financial corruption and unjust treatment of Palestinians.

Hamas was not elected on a platform of jihad or destroying Israel or killing all Jews, they were elected because they promised “hope and change” - basically a combination of Obama and Trump, and they promised to form a coalition government with Fatah. From most accounts, what happened in the first 6 months is described as an attempted coup, where Western forces tried to invalidate the election and return full power of the government to Fatah. There is a lot of political commentary about this saying that the Israeli government would not risk Hamas taking legitimate governmental control of the whole Palestine state. While the coup failed, there was warfare between the opposing faction - Hamas had control in Gaza and Fatah on the West Bank. Remember that these parties had almost a 50/50 split of electoral support. Israel partitioned them to isolate Hamas in Gaza, and Fatah declared an emergency government in the West Bank to take full control of it. Hamas retaliated against the coup attempt, partitioning, and military force that had been used to quell the fighting, by firing rockets into Israel. That is when the blockade started.

That is modern context of Gaza/Hamas. So to say that these are just inhumane terrorists who don’t represent Gaza, and the “Palestinian people don’t deserve this war” is a deficient and rudimentary description of what’s happening and why. The Palestinian people want liberation, and half of them voted for Hamas all those years ago because Hamas promised to help achieve that. Now for the past near 20 years the people of Gaza have been imprisoned, sealed off from the world, starved and abused, for what they believe is Israel refusing to let them choose their own government pursue liberation. All the while this state of young men has been radicalized in isolation by nihilist Islamist jihadism where the nation means everything and their life means nothing. The Hamas of Gaza in 2023 is a completely different organization than the party that was elected, and the circumstances mostly explain why.

You can say “none of these children ever voted for Hamas” that’s true - a lot of their dead parents and relatives did though, and that introduces a different type of loyalty and reverence. You have 10s of thousands of young people in Gaza who believe their people died for voting for Hamas, for voting for liberation. Now they are dying for it again. The cycle will continue.
 
Last edited:
The Hamas charter calls for total destruction of Israel and a state based on Sharia law, dude.

Kind of like Obama, right!?
 
Hamas won a national election with a plurality in 2006 based on a platform of change - the PA/PLO had been in power for decades and hadn’t made satisfactory progress towards Palestinian liberation or the right to return for Palestinian refugees, while many Palestinians viewed the PA as collaborators or concessionaires to Israel for their financial corruption and unjust treatment of Palestinians.

Hamas was not elected on a platform of jihad or destroying Israel or killing all Jews, they were elected because they promised “hope and change” - basically a combination of Obama and Trump, and they promised to form a coalition government with Fatah. From most accounts, what happened in the first 6 months is described as an attempted coup, where Western forces tried to invalidate the election and return full power of the government to Fatah. There is a lot of political commentary about this saying that the Israeli government would not risk Hamas taking legitimate governmental control of the whole Palestine state. While the coup failed, there was warfare between the opposing faction - Hamas had control in Gaza and Fatah on the West Bank. Remember that these parties had almost a 50/50 split of electoral support. Israel partitioned them to isolate Hamas in Gaza, and Fatah declared an emergency government in the West Bank to take full control of it. Hamas retaliated against the coup attempt, partitioning, and military force that had been used to quell the fighting, by firing rockets into Israel. That is when the blockade started.

That is modern context of Gaza/Hamas. So to say that these are just inhumane terrorists who don’t represent Gaza, and the “Palestinian people don’t deserve this war” is a deficient and rudimentary description of what’s happening and why. The Palestinian people want liberation, and half of them voted for Hamas all those years ago because Hamas promised to help achieve that. Now for the past near 20 years the people of Gaza have been imprisoned, sealed off from the world, starved and abused, for what they believe is Israel refusing to let them choose their own government pursue liberation. All the while this state of young men has been radicalized in isolation by nihilist Islamist jihadism where the nation means everything and their life means nothing. The Hamas of Gaza in 2023 is a completely different organization than the party that was elected, and the circumstances mostly explain why.

You can say “none of these children ever voted for Hamas” that’s true - a lot of their dead parents and relatives did though, and that introduces a different type of loyalty and reverence. You have 10s of thousands of young people in Gaza who believe their people died for voting for Hamas, for voting for liberation. Now they are dying for it again. The cycle will continue.
I guess you are just making my point. Everyone who doesn't share your point of view is wrong, yet you scream disrespect when called out on it. You aren't looking for discussion or conversation. You are engaging in propaganda, maybe not intentionally misleading propaganda, but propaganda nonetheless.
.
 
The Hamas charter calls for total destruction of Israel and a state based on Sharia law, dude.

Kind of like Obama, right!?
So don’t vote for them? I just described Hamas militants as nihilist Islamic Jihadis, what the fuck do you think you are describing to me that I am unaware of?
 
Fo all you people with facts and certainty about that hospital explosion, NPR presented an honest assessment of what we know and what we don't know this morning.


Useful takeaways: the explosion was largely contained to the parking lot and outside the hospital, the explosion was quite a bit smaller than your typical Israeli missile but burned very hot, lots of people were outside the hospital sleeping in cars and on the ground thinking it would be safer and less likely to get bombed than apartment buildings or really anywhere else in Gaza so the 500 death count is possible.
no matter how much i read on this hospital situation, i don't feel i have any clearer perspective on who is actually responsible
 
I guess you are just making my point. Everyone who doesn't share your point of view is wrong, yet you scream disrespect when called out on it. You aren't looking for discussion or conversation. You are engaging in propaganda, maybe not intentionally misleading propaganda, but propaganda nonetheless.
.
Why don’t you stop telling me that I’m not open for discussion and just try having a discussion. Do you think responding to an 800 word essay with “I guess you don’t agree”, is a sufficient argument? I don’t even know what your opinion is to disagree with.
 
Why don’t you stop telling me that I’m not open for discussion and just try having a discussion. Do you think responding to an 800 word essay with “I guess you don’t agree”, is a sufficient argument? I don’t even know what your opinion is to disagree with.
i've made my opinion known multiple times. not sure where you've missed it.

And you have dismissively shot down anyone who has tried to have a discussion, usually by saying it's trolling. Not everyone is going to put there opinion into a manifesto.

Let me be FUCKING CLEAR on my OPINION. I think Israel has treated Palestinians horrifically and violated human rights and that Hamas is a vile terrorist organization.
 
I don’t understand how someone acknowledges Israel acts as an apartheid state and also says they side with Israel.
 
The stark reality is there is no favorable outcome and thousands if not tens of thousands of folks will die. There is no reasonable “solution” to ending the tensions that have existed in the region for basically all of human history
Yeah, if there was a simple solution I'm pretty sure they would have found it by now.
 
Are you intentionally ignoring this part?
It feels like we need to just rewind this discussion back to the beginning or just drop it.

The post of mine that you originally dismissed was “Israel said they were going to bomb everything - they created a fog of war - who did they expect would get blamed when something got bombed?”

That’s it. Your response was “you shouldn’t trust Hamas”. I wasn’t trusting hamas I was following the simple logic of Israel following through on their promise, and there being no way to verify otherwise.
 
I don’t have to support Hamas massacring civilians in 2023 to recognize that they represent the angry fight for liberation in Gaza due to 20 year old socio-political circumstances, mostly of Israel’s poor choosing.
 
I don’t have to support Hamas massacring civilians in 2023 to recognize that they represent the angry fight for liberation in Gaza due to 20 year old socio-political circumstances, mostly of Israel’s poor choosing.

Lost in your history lesson was shortly before hamas won the election they were responsible for most of the attacks against Israel leading up to it, a vast majority of Palestinians (80%) wanted Hamas to seek peace with Israel , and after the election given they were given the chance to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist Hamas refused to do so.

So I think where most disagree is who made the poor choices.
 
Last edited:
Terrorism is the last resort of a desperate people. I condemn it but I understand how and why it happened
 
Everybody has "made the poor choices". That's why this isn't a good v. bad situation and it's a pretty gray area surrounding the entire conflict.

Nobody has clean hands and both sides have brutally murdered innocent civilians.
 
Back
Top