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Official 2018 NBA Offseason Thread: the preseason cometh

RJKarl said:
AS to PH's comment about this being the "golden era of PGs", the 80s is calling:

Magic
Zeke
Stockton
Price
DJ
Cheeks

Those are just off the top of my head.

I think Fat Lever was pretty damn good. Mark Jackson and Muggsy played in the 80s as did many others.
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You don't think that this generation is comparable? You're bringing up Mark Jackson, Fat Lever, and Muggsy Bogues in a conversation about the greatest PG generation.

For one, you have Paul, Curry, Westbrook, Wall, Irving, Conley, Lowry, Lillard, etc. Some of y'all might throw Thomas and Walker in there, too.

Do Harden, Giannis, and Bron count? I think that they should.

Depending on you cutoff point, you might throw in Nash and Kidd, too.

Ball, Fox, Smith, and Fultz are all on the way.
 
RJKarl said:
AS to PH's comment about this being the "golden era of PGs", the 80s is calling:

Magic
Zeke
Stockton
Price
DJ
Cheeks

Those are just off the top of my head.

I think Fat Lever was pretty damn good. Mark Jackson and Muggsy played in the 80s as did many others.
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In the 80's only 2 PGs had multiple seasons with a VORP of >5 (roughly equivalent to being a top 10 player):

Magic (8), and Fat Lever (4). Stockton and Isiah each chipped in one.

This decade we already have five PGs with multiple seasons of VORP > 5:

CP3 (7), Harden (5), Steph (5), Westbrook (4), and Lowry (2). Lilliard and DRose have each chipped in one.

Ph is right, this is the golden age of PGs. We have four of the top 8 or so PGs of all time currently in their prime.


* Not sure Harden belongs in this conversation (from a position standpoint) since he has only spent one year as a full time PG and we haven't seen yet how CP3's presence will impact his time at PG.
 
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Strickland33 said:
You don't think that this generation is comparable? You're bringing up Mark Jackson, Fat Lever, and Muggsy Bogues in a conversation about the greatest PG generation.

For one, you have Paul, Curry, Westbrook, Wall, Irving, Conley, Lowry, Lillard, etc. Some of y'all might throw Thomas and Walker in there, too.

Do Harden, Giannis, and Bron count? I think that they should.

Depending on you cutoff point, you might throw in Nash and Kidd, too.

Ball, Fox, Smith, and Fultz are all on the way.
Click to expand...

First of all I didn't say today isn't comparable. I just said the 80s were a golden era of PGs. What I was replying to is that This is THE GOLDEN ERA. I don't think it is THE GOLDEN ERA.

CP3 and Steph would make the Top 5 with Magic, Zeke and Stockton. Westbrook is about Westbrook. He's a great individual player but not a great team player.

If you want to put Harden in the list, then you should include MJ, Moncreif and others who were the primary ball handlers but not listed as PGs.

As to the concept of VORP, any stat that says Zeke isn't a Top 10 player for most of that decade isn't about VORP, it's about the level of talent in that decade. The same is true about Stockton. This is a perfect example of why stats without context are basically useless.
 
RJKarl said:
First of all I didn't say today isn't comparable. I just said the 80s were a golden era of PGs. What I was replying to is that This is THE GOLDEN ERA. I don't think it is THE GOLDEN ERA.

CP3 and Steph would make the Top 5 with Magic, Zeke and Stockton. Westbrook is about Westbrook. He's a great individual player but not a great team player.

If you want to put Harden in the list, then you should include MJ, Moncreif and others who were the primary ball handlers but not listed as PGs.

As to the concept of VORP, any stat that says Zeke isn't a Top 10 player for most of that decade isn't about VORP, it's about the level of talent in that decade. The same is true about Stockton. This is a perfect example of why stats without context are basically useless.
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Harden did lead the league in assists this year. I would say that he probably counts as a point guard.
 
Harden won't be the PG next year, wasn't in OKC and wasn't for at least two of the years in Houston. He was last year and partially the year before. Add to that, he is a great offensive player, but one of the worst defensive starting players in the NBA. Many times he doesn't even make a scintilla of effort on D.
 
RChildress107 said:
Wasn't trying to downplay how good Dame is, or Kyrie. But people are acting like Kyrie is on the Steph/CP3/Harden/Westbrook level when he's at least a couple tiers down from that.

After those 4 I'd go:

5. Lowry

6. Lilliard
7. IT
8. Conley

9. Wall
10. Kyrie
11. Kemba

12. Dejounte Murray
13. Dennis Schroder
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Your list, even disregarding 12 and 13, is way wack. Lowry 5th? Are you talking about the same guy who shoots 23% in the playoffs? Or some other Lowry??? I would put the order as follows:

1. Steph
2. CP3

3a. Kyrie (hit game winning championship shot)
3b. Westbrook
5. Harden (not actually a PG but for 1 year, but okay)

6. Wall
7. Conley

8. Lowry
9. Kema
10. IT
11. George Hill
12. Teague
12. Goran
13. Schroeder
 
RJKarl said:
First of all I didn't say today isn't comparable. I just said the 80s were a golden era of PGs. What I was replying to is that This is THE GOLDEN ERA. I don't think it is THE GOLDEN ERA.

CP3 and Steph would make the Top 5 with Magic, Zeke and Stockton. Westbrook is about Westbrook. He's a great individual player but not a great team player.

If you want to put Harden in the list, then you should include MJ, Moncreif and others who were the primary ball handlers but not listed as PGs.

As to the concept of VORP, any stat that says Zeke isn't a Top 10 player for most of that decade isn't about VORP, it's about the level of talent in that decade. The same is true about Stockton. This is a perfect example of why stats without context are basically useless.
Click to expand...

Advanced stats are designed to give context to counting stats like points and assists. VORP literally just takes all those stats and puts them in the context of what provides value on the court and how a player compares to the rest of the league.

Even the best advanced stats are an imperfect way of comparing players across eras, but they are certainly better than a 30 year old recollection of an eye test.
 
It's not about "30 year of recollection of eye test". it's about experts in basketball. Zeke and Stockton are universally in the Top 5-8 of All Time.
 
jaybone said:
Your list, even disregarding 12 and 13, is way wack. Lowry 5th? Are you talking about the same guy who shoots 23% in the playoffs? Or some other Lowry??? I would put the order as follows:

1. Steph
2. CP3

3a. Kyrie (hit game winning championship shot)
3b. Westbrook
5. Harden (not actually a PG but for 1 year, but okay)

6. Wall
7. Conley

8. Lowry
9. Kema
10. IT
11. George Hill
12. Teague
12. Goran
13. Schroeder
Click to expand...

If you want to bump Kyrie into the bottom or middle of the 5-9 group because of one possession and want to dock Lowry for his poor postseason play I'm fine with that. I disagree, but it's not completely crazy.

Having Kyrie third is crazy.

If you want to way overrate clutch playmaking ability and not count Harden as a PG then maybe you can get him to 5th. I can't put him over Lilliard who is a better overall player and just as capable of hitting the shot Kyrie hit in 2016.
 
Lot of people really under rating Conley in the last few pages. he's closer to 3rd best PG in the league than he is 8th, and it's not really even close.
 
RJKarl said:
It's not about "30 year of recollection of eye test". it's about experts in basketball. Zeke and Stockton are universally in the Top 5-8 of All Time.
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Fine. I'll revise my earlier statement.

Even the best advanced stats are an imperfect way of comparing players across eras, but they are certainly better than an expert's 30 year old recollection of an eye test.
 
RChildress107 said:
Fine. I'll revise my earlier statement.

Even the best advanced stats are an imperfect way of comparing players across eras, but they are certainly better than a 30 year old expert recollection of an eye test.
Click to expand...

I'll take people who know the game over arbitrary stats any day. Stats might add to some things but they shouldn't be the cornerstone to anything.
 
RChildress107 said:
If you want to bump Kyrie into the bottom or middle of the 5-9 group because of one possession and want to dock Lowry for his poor postseason play I'm fine with that. I disagree, but it's not completely crazy.

Having Kyrie third is crazy.

If you want to way overrate clutch playmaking ability and not count Harden as a PG then maybe you can get him to 5th. I can't put him over Lilliard who is a better overall player and just as capable of hitting the shot Kyrie hit in 2016.
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Begrudgingly acknowledge your logic here. I meant Lillard to be in there between westbrook and Harden but yes, you have it.
 
jaybone said:
Begrudgingly acknowledge your logic here. I meant Lillard to be in there between westbrook and Harden but yes, you have it.
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To be fair to Kyrie, he's only 25 and his development has stalled over the past few seasons. In recent history, only Chris Paul was better at age 21 than Kyrie at the PG position.

Chris made a huge leap in his age 22 season (the year he should have won MVP). Kyrie made a small leap at age 22, his first year playing second fiddle to Lebron, but has been largely stagnant in that role.

The idea that Kyrie might jump into that top tier if he lands in the right situation isn't crazy (though I'm skeptical) and for many teams is certainly worth the risk.
 
oh goodie, another nonsensical rj/childress argument
 
Who would be the best point guard in the league if all point guards could only use one hand and had to wear an eye patch over one eye????
 
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