Staak vs. [Redacted]

[ABCDeac]

Staak was "better" for three main reasons: (1) The ACC was much better overall; (2) he didn't get killed in as many games; and (3) Wake was not really "established" when he came to town. A decent history, but could not in any way be considered a top-tier ACC team. Since Odom, Wake has had a pretty solid run, and certainly with expansion, we would be considered a top-half ACC team by anyone. The depth of this fall is unprecedented absent NCAA sanctions or utter turmoil (Len Bias aftermath).

 

[HeavyPetter]

One would stop at nothing to win a tittle.

That's a good one.

 

[LilburnDeac]

Staak was "better" for three main reasons: (1) The ACC was much better overall; (2) he didn't get killed in as many games; and (3) Wake was not really "established" when he came to town. A decent history, but could not in any way be considered a top-tier ACC team. Since Odom, Wake has had a pretty solid run, and certainly with expansion, we would be considered a top-half ACC team by anyone. The depth of this fall is unprecedented absent NCAA sanctions or utter turmoil (Len Bias aftermath).

While I won't argue about Staak being better than Buzz, I don't think it is fair to say that Wake wasn't "established" when he came here. Wake was just one season removed from a Final 8 run with the big win over Depaul. Wake had been to the NCAA Tourney in 3 of the 5 years prior to Staak's arrival. And this was before the 64+ team field. Wake was just as much a top-half ACC team when Staak arrived as when Buzz arrived.

 

[HeavyPetter]

Sure no BC, but MD went 0-14 and 1-13 during two of Staak's years.

In year 3 we lost at home to Siena, Furman and Coastal Carolina. But at the same time we beat #20 State and #3 UNC

As stated in his first two years he had Bogues which kept us from being totally pathetic. I'll never forget that double foul call against Bogues in our 2OT loss to NC State in the ACCT.

Yr 1 - 11 double digit ACC losses (out of 14 games) - 0 ACC wins
Yr 2 - 6 double digit ACC losses- 2 ACC wins against 0-14 MD (upset 2nd seed Clemson in ACCT and took State to 2OT)
Yr 3 - 6 double digit ACC losses - 3 ACC wins #20 State, #3 UNC, bottom feeding Clemson
Yr 4 - 4 double digit ACC losses - 3 ACC wins - 2 against 1-13 MD and #1 dook

Staak did have some really bad luck personnel-wise

- Kenny Green left early and was a 1st round NBA bust
- Charlie Thomas supposedly flunked out of school and wound up at New Mexico IIRC
- We had a freshman Keys? that blew out his knee in one of the first games of the year
- Robert Siler, who might have been the most athletic player we've ever had (he was also a pretty highly recruited in football) blew out both of his knees, but could still jump out of the gym
- Then there was the mystery illness for Sam Ivey who had been on track to be an all-ACC type player in his Jr and Sr year

And if IIRC, he actually was not fired for his record, but for a minor recruiting violation with Anthony Tucker, at least that was the excuse that was used.

When he left Chris King (played in the NBA) was already here and if you believe the story, he was recruiting RR and had gotten him interested in Wake.

That's a pretty good synopsis and all around pretty accurate by my recollection. My first year at Wake was Staak's last. I think that Kitley was involved in injuries to both Daric Keys and Robert Siler during practice.

Here's a write up from the victory over UNC-CH in January 1988, my freshman year. (Dateline: Greensboro)

 

[HeavyPetter]

While I won't argue about Staak being better than Buzz, I don't think it is fair to say that Wake wasn't "established" when he came here. Wake was just one season removed from a Final 8 run with the big win over Depaul. Wake had been to the NCAA Tourney in 3 of the 5 years prior to Staak's arrival. And this was before the 64+ team field. Wake was just as much a top-half ACC team when Staak arrived as when Buzz arrived.

Wake was also only 23 years removed from the Final Four at that point.

 

[PhDeac]

Muggsy was a legitimate NBA starter. I am a huge fan of both CJ and McKie, but that future for them is a reach. Not saying that I disagree with you, but if we are drawing a connection to Muggsy, it's apples and oranges.

I'm saying both coaches had some top talents relative to the rest of the league not that CJ and McKie are going to the NBA.

It's crazy that we have two of the top 20 or so players in a 12 team league yet are mostly uncompetitive.

 

[HeavyPetter]

I'm saying both coaches had some top talents relative to the rest of the league not that CJ and McKie are going to the NBA.

It's crazy that we have two of the top 20 or so players in a 12 team league yet are mostly uncompetitive.

I think we might be kidding ourselves a little bit about McKie being a top 20 player. I know he just got honorable mention All-ACC, but he wouldn't start on a couple of teams and his minutes and production would be lower on some others. Additionally the supporting cast for those two is young and only marginaly talented.

And CJ only made 3rd team. How are you going to be any good when your best player is only 3rd team?

 

[Buttermaker]

I lived it. We sucked back then, but as was said earlier, we had the occasional good win and the losses weren't nearly as horrendously bad.

+1

Yes, Staak had Muggsy as another poster pointed out, but the rest of the roster was pretty weak. Wake famously pulled a guy from the intramural court during those days who got posturized by JR Reid on the cover of SI for his trouble.

 

[cville deac]

Agree with Medlin & ABC for the reasons they've stated. Staak was the better coach, and we were more competitive in a MUCH tougher ACC. OTOH, female profs, university staff and students are safer with Bzdk at the helm.

 

[Deac83]

Those that came after Staak thinks out basketball history started with Odom. Before Staak we played in the era of limited bids per conference.

Facts:

YR/ACC/Overall

85 5-9 15-14 (NIT)
84 7-7 23-9 (NCAA final 8) highest ranking 8th
83 7-7 20-12 (NIT) highest ranking 19th
82 9-5 21-9 (NCAA) highest ranking 13th
81 9-5 22-7 (NCAA) highest ranking 3rd
80 4-10 13-14 - (Frank Johnson injury)
79 3-9 12-15
78 6-6 19-10 highest ranking 14th (lost to dook in ACCT final)
77 8-4 22-8 (NCAA final 8) highest ranking 4th
76 5-7 17-10 highest ranking 5th

Certainly not a program which was not established.

Both of Bzz and Staak's first two years were non-competitive.

double digit losses in ACC

yr 1 Staak 11 of 14, Bzz 13 of 16
yr 2 Staak 6 of 14, Bzz 9 of 16

That gives Staak a slight edge but we are splitting hairs there.

And MD was horrible for 2 of Staak's years 1-27 in the ACC accounting for 50% of Staak's ACC wins.

 

[Deacfreak07]

I think we might be kidding ourselves a little bit about McKie being a top 20 player. I know he just got honorable mention All-ACC, but he wouldn't start on a couple of teams and his minutes and production would be lower on some others. Additionally the supporting cast for those two is young and only marginaly talented.

And CJ only made 3rd team. How are you going to be any good when your best player is only 3rd team?

McKie is a top 20 player. Unfortunately, his skill set doesn't improve when more responsibility is placed on his shoulders. If he were on a team with more talent, his production would go up, not down, IMO.

 

[PhDeac]

Muggsy was a legitimate NBA starter. I am a huge fan of both CJ and McKie, but that future for them is a reach. Not saying that I disagree with you, but if we are drawing a connection to Muggsy, it's apples and oranges.

I'm saying both coaches had some top talents relative to the rest of the league not that CJ and McKie are going to the NBA.

It's crazy that we have two of the top 20 or so players in a 12 team league yet are mostly uncompetitive.

 

[Deac83]

A scan of Staak's roster:

86 Bogues, Cline, Watson
87 Bogues, Cline, Ivy, Watson
88 Ivy
89 Ivy, McQueen, Siler, King

 

[Colonel Angus]

I'm saying both coaches had some top talents relative to the rest of the league not that CJ and McKie are going to the NBA.

It's crazy that we have two of the top 20 or so players in a 12 team league yet are mostly uncompetitive.

I see where you are coming from but the game is still played 5 on 5.

Muggsy was a different animal because he was much better player than Harris or Mckie and it was more difficult to take him out of a game because the ball was always in his hands.

 

[HeavyPetter]

Everyone on our team totally sucks compared to Muggsy.

Hell, everyone in the ACC totally sucks compared to Muggsy.

 

[demondeacfreak]

I think we might be kidding ourselves a little bit about McKie being a top 20 player. I know he just got honorable mention All-ACC, but he wouldn't start on a couple of teams and his minutes and production would be lower on some others. Additionally the supporting cast for those two is young and only marginaly talented.

And CJ only made 3rd team. How are you going to be any good when your best player is only 3rd team?

He may very well be a top 20 player in this ACC, but I don't think McKie is a great player. His defense is pretty suspect at times and his assist numbers are way too low. I think he averaged maybe one assist a game this year. I think he's a good one-on-one player and that's about it.

 

[marquee moon]

Everyone on our team totally sucks compared to Muggsy.

Hell, everyone in the ACC totally sucks compared to Muggsy.

lucky to see him live his last year with Wake

guy was fucking awesome

shit i'm old.....

 

[Stormfury]

The real measure. I could stand to watch when Staak was coach, Bzz... Not so much. It's painful watching this team the past 2 seasons. Certainly not happy with either but the games were watchable at least in the Staak era.

 

[PhDeac]

Muggsy was a legitimate NBA starter. I am a huge fan of both CJ and McKie, but that future for them is a reach. Not saying that I disagree with you, but if we are drawing a connection to Muggsy, it's apples and oranges.

I'm saying both coaches had some top talents relative to the rest of the league not that CJ and McKie are going to the NBA.

It's crazy that we have two of the top 20 or so players in a 12 team league yet are mostly uncompetitive.

 

[Buttermaker]

A scan of Staak's roster:

86 Bogues, Cline, Watson
87 Bogues, Cline, Ivy, Watson
88 Ivy
89 Ivy, McQueen, Siler, King

I forgot Rod Watson was there two years before he got booted. Smooth Sam Ivy was a solid Staak signee, and he set the table for Odom's program resurrection with McQueen, King and Tucker.