Tar Holes NOA from the NCAA

[DeaconPeach]

Drives me crazy when media commentators say that its unfair to punish the current players and staff because the transgression occurred long ago. UNC has played a role, if not caused, the delays; so, there is no reason to reduce the punishment based upon time. Also, every UNC recruit is well aware of the investigation and potential punishments and still chose to attend UNC. UNC can always agree to allow players to transfer without penalty.

Finally, Roy was an assistant at UNC when the academic fraud started, and he has been a head coach for 13 years; so, the fraud continued after he came back (same with assistants CB McGrath and James Robinson who have assisted at UNC for 13 years). Hubert Davis was a player at UNC when the academic fraud was going full steam. This is not a situation where the staff lacked any connection to the wrongdoing.

This cannot be stressed enough. If a current player was stupid enough to go to a school under NCAA investigation, then they deserve any punishment that is meted out.

 

[DemonDeacon92]

This cannot be stressed enough. If a current player was stupid enough to go to a school under NCAA investigation, then they deserve any punishment that is meted out.

Agreed, but due to the fact that Roy and Fedora have been telling recruits their sports won't be punished, players should be able to transfer without sitting out.

 

[deaconson]

i must admit. i am starting to believe ol' roy. he has no reason to lie about cheating.

he knows that despite the school spending money to fund jobs and an entire department dedicated to helping non-revenue sports cheat to stay eligible... well, there really is no reason to give the money generating revenue sports a leg up on the competition.

kudos roy for standing up for your kids. after all THEY did not benefit from the cheating. they just chose to attend a school that has cheated for championships before. those kids on the team did not choose carolina for the legacy of winning. it's just the university closest to their homes so their families can come see them play.

 

[pourdeac]

i must admit. i am starting to believe ol' roy. he has no reason to lie about cheating.

he knows that despite the school spending money to fund jobs and an entire department dedicated to helping non-revenue sports cheat to stay eligible... well, there really is no reason to give the money generating revenue sports a leg up on the competition.

kudos roy for standing up for your kids. after all THEY did not benefit from the cheating. they just chose to attend a school that has cheated for championships before. those kids on the team did not choose carolina for the legacy of winning. it's just the university closest to their homes so their families can come see them play.

Roy may have realized what was going on and was trying to end it as far as the bball team's involvement.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article10104308.html

 

[deaconson]

Roy may have realized what was going on and was trying to end it as far as the bball team's involvement.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article10104308.html

the way i read that article is he tried to slow it down rather than end it. take an extra class here and there to help but don't flaunt it by taking most of your classes like that (i'm looking at your 2005 team)

“You had Roy Williams and Joe Holladay taking these steps to reduce the number of paper classes that their players were taking,” Wainstein said.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article10104308.html#storylink=cpy

 

[pourdeac]

the way i read that article is he tried to slow it down rather than end it. take an extra class here and there to help but don't flaunt it by taking most of your classes like that (i'm looking at your 2005 team)

Or he found out what was going on and was quietly disengaging from the practice...because his team was already tainted and the football team was taking the practice to an extreme. Any dramatic move regarding majors would have raised concerns.

He was still obviously concerned about what was going on. Who else was, other than the tudor? <crickets>.

 

[deaconson]

Concerned about getting caught. I agree with that. Concerned about education? Young men's lives after basketball? Doing the right thing?

Chase that ring Roy.

 

[Ernest T Deacon]

My daughter recently signed a LOI to run track and cross country at UNC. During her official visit back in October, I point blank asked the head track coach if the NCAA investigation might redound to the Track program. Without hesitation, he replied, "Yes, it's possible."

So before my daughter made her decision, I reminded her of the nature and duration of the scandal, how it might affect her participation in ACC and/or NCAA post-season races, and how she needed to be prepared to hear taunts of "cheater," etc. both during her time as a student-athlete at UNC, and following her graduation. In spite of these warnings, she still signed with UNC. Caveat emptor...

 

[pourdeac]

Concerned about getting caught. I agree with that. Concerned about education? Young men's lives after basketball? Doing the right thing?

Chase that ring Roy.

Nah..I don't buy that. There's nothing I've ever read, seen, or heard (including from a bball manager on the team now) that would make me think he doesn't care about his players. Butch Davis doesn't give a rats ass...that's for sure.

 

[deaconson]

i'll agree to disagree that allowing kids to take fewer fake classes is caring about their long term success in life.

 

[pourdeac]

i'll agree to disagree that allowing kids to take fewer fake classes is caring about their long term success in life.

At first glance sure, but he inherited the problem. If you knew how bad it was and cared about the players, what would you do? Force the players to ditch AFAM start their majors over? No way. Blow the whistle on the situation and gut the team (and AD)? No way. I think he sort of sensed/knew there were problems and wanted to get out of that minefield for all the right reasons. I can't fault him for slowly backing out of it. That would be the move to make.

What has always disgusted me was how UNC was using these classes to prop up regular students. I sort of expect some of this stuff to prop up football players who might not otherwise be college material.

 

[RacerDeac]

At first glance sure, but he inherited the problem. If you knew how bad it was and cared about the players, what would you do? Force the players to ditch AFAM start their majors over? No way. Blow the whistle on the situation and gut the team (and AD)? No way. I think he sort of sensed/knew there were problems and wanted to get out of that minefield for all the right reasons. I can't fault him for slowly backing out of it. That would be the move to make.

What has always disgusted me was how UNC was using these classes to prop up regular students. I sort of expect some of this stuff to prop up football players who might not otherwise be college material.

"Inherited"...it started under Dean and has a been a staple of the academic support program for basketball ever since. There's no way he was unaware of it before taking the job. It's not like he's some sort of outsider. Hell, he brought Wayne Walden with him from Kansas (raising questions in my mind what he was up to in that program) and called him his "right hand man", a man who can be seen through paper trails as specifically placing players in these classes. A man who helped McCants to take an entire semester of non-existent paper classes. Roy used the system to win two NC's before he started backing his players out of it. And, as the investigation has alluded to, there were definitely other suspect classes outside of AFAM that were likely where his players ended up to take the focus off of the "clustering" there.

Sure, he inherited it. And he profited greatly from it. And then he quietly tried to make it go away when folks started to take notice.

 

[Ernest T Deacon]

I had a peer in a previous company who played football at UNC in the Julius Peppers era. He got into UNC on his own merits and walked onto the football team. He admitted taking a few of the paper classss and said they were exactly as advertised. He is embarrassed and ashamed by his actions and his alma mater.

When I asked him if it was possible that an athlete or coach didn't know about the sham, he laughed and said, essentially, "You would have to have been either blind or deaf not to know." I asked him point blank if it was possible that Roy didn't know, and he laughed again: "No way in hell he didn't know," he said.

 

[pourdeac]

I had a peer in a previous company who played football at UNC in the Julius Peppers era. He got into UNC on his own merits and walked onto the football team. He admitted taking a few of the paper classss and said they were exactly as advertised. He is embarrassed and ashamed by his actions and his alma mater.

When I asked him if it was possible that an athlete or coach didn't know about the sham, he laughed and said, essentially, "You would have to have been either blind or deaf not to know." I asked him point blank if it was possible that Roy didn't know, and he laughed again: "No way in hell he didn't know," he said.

Oh, I think he knew...after he got there. I just don't think he knew before he got there how bad it really was. He's a true believer in the "Carolina Way". He seems genuinely bothered by it to me. I think he's as embarrassed as your peer.

The AFAM major probably started as an easy major for minorities, including athletes, and then slowly morphed into what it became as the AFAM dept got lazier and was accepted by the university (both athletes and non-athletes). I don't think AFAM as we now know it was run that way back in Dean's days, it just gradually got out of control....and then exploded under Dick Baddour in response to the Matt Doherty fiasco.

 

[jhmd2000]

Oh, I think he knew...after he got there. I just don't think he knew before he got there how bad it really was. He's a true believer in the "Carolina Way". He seems genuinely bothered by it to me. I think he's as embarrassed as your peer.

The AFAM major probably started as an easy major for minorities, including athletes, and then slowly morphed into what it became as the AFAM dept got lazier and was accepted by the university (both athletes and non-athletes). I don't think AFAM as we now know it was run that way back in Dean's days, it just gradually got out of control....and then exploded under Dick Baddour in response to the Matt Doherty fiasco.

This is A+ABC Sports Fan Fiction. Professor Nyangoro was just a super-qualified, hard-working, bona fide academic but because of the 8-20 season he was forced into becoming lazy and greedy over his vocal objection. Super guilty white campus liberal administrators---all of whom worship at the alter of intercollegiate athletics---were stripped of their previously famous instincts to hold a politically sacred cow identity studies program's feet to the fire, decided instead to elevate it to a campus-level department and look the other way (again by superfans in academics) because of sports? It just pained them to look the other way and elevate AFAM and let it run on autopilot, didn't it?

 

[deaconson]

He is a true believer in the "carolina way." Now the rest of us know what that really means.

 

[pourdeac]

Super guilty white campus liberal administrators---all of whom worship at the alter of intercollegiate athletics---were stripped of their previously famous instincts to hold a politically sacred cow identity studies program's feet to the fire, decided instead to elevate it to a campus-level department and look the other way (again by superfans in academics) because of sports? It just pained them to look the other way and elevate AFAM and let it run on autopilot, didn't it?

Ahhh...no. They didn't look the other way as it got out of control because of sports. They looked the other way because of how it helped non-athlete minorities. IMO....helping minorities get a UNC degree was the goal of AFAM. No one was going to attack AFAM because they'd be called racists....the sacred cow identity program. It was unassailable. So they had no problem letting it run on autopilot and get worse as long as those graduation metrics kept rolling in. That's the elephant in the room. Sports benefited too...so a win for athletics seeking Ws and a win for your white guilt laden academic administrators.

 

[PhDeac]

And this thread has turned into a conservative circle jerk.

 

[bym051d]

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article69262627.html

UNC-Chapel Hill, which is under investigation for fraudulent classes involving athletes, has maintained that students were not subjected to a limit on independent studies until the 2006-07 academic year.

That stance appears to have narrowed one key part of the NCAA’s investigation.

But a new document released by the university in March shows that the limit on independent studies started before 2003. Other evidence suggests that the limit was in place since the early 1990s.

In response to a long-standing public records request from The News & Observer, UNC provided a 2003 faculty report that proposed numerous curriculum changes.

Deep within the report, the authors cited a 12-hour independent studies limit. Noting that curriculum changes can’t happen if they run counter to General College and Arts and Sciences guidelines, the report said: “That might mean, for example, considering whether to reaffirm the current rule that an Arts and Sciences student can count toward graduation only twelve hours of independent study.”

The start date of that 12-credit-hour limit is critical because the NCAA considers that athletes who exceeded it received an impermissible benefit.

 

[Tobacco Road]

I had a peer in a previous company who played football at UNC in the Julius Peppers era. He got into UNC on his own merits and walked onto the football team. He admitted taking a few of the paper classss and said they were exactly as advertised. He is embarrassed and ashamed by his actions and his alma mater.

When I asked him if it was possible that an athlete or coach didn't know about the sham, he laughed and said, essentially, "You would have to have been either blind or deaf not to know." I asked him point blank if it was possible that Roy didn't know, and he laughed again: "No way in hell he didn't know," he said.

You know he know!