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Wake Forest vs. Florida State Game Thread

And one more thing. Would it be inappropriate to put a shock collar on Wilbekin and zap him every time he tries to take it to the hoop over multiple defenders that are a foot taller than him and tons more athletic? I swear he can't be shooting even 5% on those plays over his career, and he is almost never able to draw a foul call. It's like watching a 5th grader trying to score on high school players. Really, really frustrates me.
 
I was at the game - must have looked much different in person than on TV as I thought Manning did a nice job making adjustments given the athletic mismatches and the disappearance of Collins. FSU simply has too many backcourt players that Wake could not cover in man-to-man. FSU failed to take advantage of it in the first half as they were settling for too many three point attempts. Once they started attacking with the ball, the momentum completely shifted.

Maybe Wake could have gone to a zone but I'm not sure that Manning is comfortable using a zone as more than providing a different defensive look for a few possessions. With limited practice time, it is very difficult to develop both effective man and zone defenses. I do not see this team being able to stop any good ACC offenses simply due to the physical limitations of most of the rotation players.
 
canadiandeac said:
or maybe younger men that need to learn lessons in a sport as a team on their own respond diferently then grown men who are being paid millions of dollars to do their job who lost focus would
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Manning does some things well as a coach but in-game coaching is a problem.

The two things he did today that cost us was subbing out players with two fouls and not using a timeout during runs.

Wake had an 8 point lead in the first half and was playing great but he took out Crawford, Woods, and Collins with two fouls. Wake lost the lead and the momentum.
Collins picks up his 3rd foul early in the second half. You have to let him keep playing. He picked up his 4th foul and Wake promptly lost the game. We went from a 5 point lead to a 10 point deficit without a timeout. Manning should have called a timeout and put Collins back in. If he fouls out, fine, you tried.

Keeping your players on the bench is playing not to lose. I am fricking sick of watching timid Wake coaches play not to lose.

Play the damn game to win and let the chips fall where they may.
 
Well, it seems like the reason for today's loss has been identified by someone somewhere in this thread. But the Deacon meltdown in the final nine minutes of the game is probably a combination of all the reasons identified. Not to mention the improved performance shown by FSU offensively for the reason RJK identified. You could also include that the pressure defense employed by FSU will generally have its greatest effect the final ten minutes of the game. Then again this was a conference game and this is what happens in Deacon conference games the past six years.

It's one game. The result is disappointing after playing decently for thirty one minutes. Seventeen more to play to determine the quality (or lack thereof) of this team.
 
asb said:
I was at the game - must have looked much different in person than on TV as I thought Manning did a nice job making adjustments given the athletic mismatches and the disappearance of Collins. FSU simply has too many backcourt players that Wake could not cover in man-to-man. FSU failed to take advantage of it in the first half as they were settling for too many three point attempts. Once they started attacking with the ball, the momentum completely shifted.

Maybe Wake could have gone to a zone but I'm not sure that Manning is comfortable using a zone as more than providing a different defensive look for a few possessions. With limited practice time, it is very difficult to develop both effective man and zone defenses. I do not see this team being able to stop any good ACC offenses simply due to the physical limitations of most of the rotation players.
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Even with those limitations if we don't have empty possession after empty possession, we keep the game close with a chance to steal it. Instead our guards started tossing the ball to FSU and they made us pay. It's not DM's fault that his guards seemingly forgot how to complete a clean pass, but it is fault for not trying to stop it by calling a TO and settling them down.

We just do not have enough margin for error to let other ACC teams get separation from us, we must maintain contact.
 
canadiandeac said:
that this was a unique situation tonight. and what did you expect. we were overmanned. a time out to pump up the team or sub in a less talented player wouldnt have fixed that issue
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Good lord I am tired of you spouting this stupid tripe. I am not one to bash the coach but it is universally accepted that you call a timeout to stop or slow a run by the other team. Especially when you have a young team. Especially when your team appears to have lost its mind and its will. Especially on the road against a better team in the last 10 minutes of the game when you have been in the lead or close the whole game and now it is in danger of slipping away.

You might let it play out and see how the players react if it was in the first half - but waiting until you are down 10+ at the 5 minute mark on the road against a better team just means you gave away any chance at a win.
 
Manning used the zone pretty regularly as part of multiple defenses.
 
PhDeac said:
I watch the games. You must be watching some blooper mixtape. Crawford runs the offense well and sets up his teammates. He makes a few poor plays on occasion, but he's definitely a PG. Without Collins on the court, he has to be a more aggressive scorer.
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Then you're definitely not watching all the games.
 
MichDeac25 said:
Then you're definitely not watching all the games.
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Two games account for almost half his turnovers. You're letting those games cloud your perspective.
 
Agree fully with critique of Manning taking out Woods/Crawford in last 3 minutes of half, not playing Collins during their run, and not using a timeout to calm team down. That being said, we hung with them for 30+ minutes and it is pretty evident that we are a pretty good (ie top 50) but not great team. But, we are not going to win this game with Collins riding the bench and scoring 2 points. I think the sloppy play at end was part fatigue, as their guards hounded our guards all game and they rotated in and out. The other part was FSU hitting some shots, us pressing, and then just getting rattled on the road.
 
Part of the Crawford/Woods minutes critique is that Manning left us playing extended minutes with a Childress/Wilbekin backcourt which anybody could see was going to be ineffective against their length on the perimeter.

Foul trouble is only trouble to the extent the coach lets it be trouble.
 
PhDeac said:
Part of the Crawford/Woods minutes critique is that Manning left us playing extended minutes with a Childress/Wilbekin backcourt which anybody could see was going to be ineffective against their length on the perimeter.

Foul trouble is only trouble to the extent the coach lets it be trouble.
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That combination made me scratch my head, too.

But "foul trouble" is not just measured to the extent that "the coach lets it be trouble". That completely removes the player(s) and the referees from the equation.
 
Fouling out is up to the players and referees. Foul trouble is up to the coach. If a player isn't disqualified from the game, he can play unless the coach doesn't let him. In this case, Manning let foul trouble force him into in effective lineups.
 
Was surprised we hung around so long with Collins mostly on the bench and Moore hurt.

Was disappointed we completely fell apart at the end.

Expected a loss. Wish the final score were a little closer, but we played well for a large part of the game.

We need to win the next two.
 
We totally got out of our offense in the last 7 minutes or so, when FSU ran away from us. In the first 30 minutes of the game it seemed that we had good movement, passing, etc which lead to some good looks that we knocked down. Then all of a sudden it seemed like we had 10 straight possessions where it just became Crawford, Childress, and Wilbekin doing a lot of dribbling and then forcing penetration and/or bad shots, which lead to turnovers and bad misses and then ultimately to a lot of FSU run-outs. After two or three of those possessions of that, you would think most coaches would call a TO to reiterate the need to run the offense and play team ball. It was just so frustrating watching Childress and Wilbekin trying to force plays against guys that are so much bigger and athletic than they are; not to mention Crawford getting so careless with the ball. You could feel the game totally getting away from them, and it seems like it would have been smart for the coaching staff to step in and try to settle them down. Instead it just got worse and worse.
 
I don't think Crawford was in during that run. The main reason to call a TO would have been just to put the best lineup on the floor.

It's weird that Manning gets willy nilly with rotations when we have a lead but doesn't call a TO to tighten up the rotations when we lose a lead.
 
PhDeac said:
Fouling out is up to the players and referees. Foul trouble is up to the coach. If a player isn't disqualified from the game, he can play unless the coach doesn't let him. In this case, Manning let foul trouble force him into in effective lineups.
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Honest question - is it better to have a star player play 30 minutes but foul out with say 7 minutes to play versus only playing 20 minutes but being in for the last 3 or so minutes? I would think getting 10 extra minutes out of a player is worth not having him in at the end. Unless maybe it is your ball handler/creator and/or best FT shooter?
 
We went up by 5 with 8:59 to go. FSU then hit a 3 to cut it to 2. Our next possessions went:

Childress TO
MW missed lay-up
Childress missed 3 pt
Childress missed lay-up
Crawford TO
Crawford missed dunk
MW TO
Crawford TO

By that point we were down 12 (4:52 to play). Our guards tried to force it and failed miserably.

Edit to add that there was a TV timeout after the Childress missed lay-up, and then a Wake timeout after the MW TO.
 
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