• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Penn State fraternity murder

EatLeadCommie said:
Defend it, no. Do I understand that kids that age do stupid things and may react in a way that think ensures self-preservation when things don't go as planned? Absolutely. You had one kid in the whole fraternity who appeared to have some sense, and frankly he seemed like a bit of a nerd who nobody probably listens to most of the time. It sucks that a whole bunch of them are going to have their lives ruined for not exercising good judgment at an age when most people do not exercise it on a regular basis and while they themselves were probably also intoxicated. I'm guessing that the people who will be found most culpable though will be the ones who forced the drinks down his throat and maybe the people who actually witnessed the fall and could comprehend the severity of it. A bunch of also-drunk kids who hear that he got drunk and fell down some stairs and make a halfassed attempt to wake him up are too detached from the situation to be held criminally liable, in my opinion.

All involved share some responsibility, to include the dead kid, though his share is much, much less than the others. Call it frat culture or drinking culture or whatever you want to call it-- doesn't matter. It's just stupid beyond the bounds of regular stupidity. As somebody who has been hitting drinking establishments longer than many of you have been alive and dealt with 3 years of partying hard in a frat at Wake, I've never understood the need to force an absurd amount of drinks into somebody, not even a pledge. Make them do a kegstand at a tailgate or help you drink your beers or a bottle of Beam over an interview or something. Haze them with some moderately humiliating activity. None of those things should end up with a trip to the ER or even put one in a position to be hospitalized or in trouble with the popo.
Click to expand...


You really should read the timeline of what occurred that night/morning.
 
Freshman year in Kitchin dorm, a guy in my suite comes back to the room drunk and with spaghetti noodles and sauce all over his face and clothes. When he was sober enough the next morning to tell us what happened, it was part of a frat initiation where he had to eat spaghetti off a guy's bare crotch and not leave any noodles. That sealed the deal for me to be a "GDI" for the next 4 years.
 
Last edited:
that's fucking ridiculous. I don't ever want some dude eating spaghetti off my ball sack.
 
Here is how the night of Feb. 2 and early morning hours of Feb. 3 unfolded at Beta Theta Pi, according to the report, which cited evidence including video from surveillance cameras, testimony and phone records:

On the night of Feb. 2, Piazza engaged in drinking as a part of a pledge ritual and his blood alcohol content reached 0.28 and 0.36 percent.

His fall was not captured on surveillance cameras, but someone heard it, and when one man went to the top of the basement stairs, he saw Piazza lying facedown at the bottom. In a group message to other fraternity brothers at 11:53 p.m. that night, that man wrote, "Tim Piazza might actually be a problem. He fell 15 feet down a flight of stairs, hair-first, going to need help."

Surveillance video at 10:47 p.m. showed Piazza being carried upstairs by four fraternity brothers; in the video, his body appeared limp, his eyes were closed, he appeared unconscious, and a bruise was visible on his side. Piazza was placed on a couch, and liquid was dumped on his face twice, but he didn't respond either time.

About a half an hour after the fall, at 11:14 p.m., a newly initiated member saw Piazza lying on the couch, looking "horrible," he later told the grand jury. He saw Piazza "thrashing and making weird movements on the couch" and screamed at the fraternity brothers for help, stressing that Piazza needed to go to the hospital because he could have a concussion. One brother shoved the newly initiated member into a wall and said they had it under control.

At 11:25 p.m., the pledge master slapped Piazza three times in the face. At 11:37 p.m., one fraternity brother tackled another brother into the couch, physically landing on top of Piazza.

By 1 a.m., some brothers saw Piazza vomit and twitch on the couch. Three brothers filled a backpack with books and placed it on Piazza to try to keep him from rolling to his back if he passed out. At 1:48 a.m., Piazza rolled off the couch and to the floor, and three brothers picked him up and "slammed him onto the couch." One brother hit Piazza hard once in the abdomen.

By 2:38 a.m., Piazza rolled to the floor and at 3:16 p.m. his legs were moving. At 3:22 p.m., Piazza tried to stand and the backpack came off and he fell back, hitting his head on the hardwood floor. A fraternity brother attempted to shake him for a moment and then left the room.

At 3:46 a.m., Piazza was curled up on the floor in the fetal position with his knees toward his chest. At 3:49 a.m., Piazza positioned himself on his knees, bent over with his elbows on the floor and his head in his hands. At 3:54 a.m., he tried to stand but fell facedown on the floor. At 4:59 a.m., he stood and then fell head first into an iron railing, landing on a stone floor.

"He gets up again and attempts to go to the front door, but before he reaches it he falls head first into the door," the grand jury report says. He later rolled to his side, clutching his abdomen.

At 5:15 a.m., one brother came into the room, stepped over the injured pledge, looked at him and then left the room. At 5:26 a.m., another brother saw Piazza on the floor and walked him to another room but Piazza fell down three steps, and the brother stepped over him on the floor and left him there.

At about 10 a.m., fraternity members found the 19-year-old in the basement lying on his back, breathing heavily and with blood on his face. One brother said Piazza's eyes were half open and he felt cold. Three men carried Piazza's unconscious body upstairs and placed him back on the couch. Surveillance footage showed brothers shaking him and trying to prop him up. At 10:48 a.m., a fraternity member called 911 but did not say Piazza fell down the stairs the night before.
 
Well this thread went about as expected.

Those guys deserve any and all punishments they will get from the courts.

I hope to god that if I ever get that drunk that my friends have enough appreciation for me to:

1. Punch me in the abdomen
2. Put books on me to make sure I don't roll over and choke on my own vomit/blood
3. Shake me multiple times when I may have a concussion.
4. Pour liquid on my face twice to wake me up.
5. Slap me in the face three times.

Yeah, he deserved it though because he chose to drink, not the frat's fault. What classic victim shaming.
 
2&2 must be really conflicted with his hatred of fraternities and fun compared to his love of free flowing super shitty beer.
 
Stories like this always bring a slew of "this is why i never joined a fraternity!". When you hear about hazing on sports teams you don't ever see "this is why i never played sports!"

What these guys did was awful and they should be prosecuted. Fraternities are great and joining one greatly enhanced my college experience/life.
 
i mean, it's difficult to play big team sports in high school without joining the school team

it's not hard to find friends and drink in college
 
ImTheCaptain said:
Here is how the night of Feb. 2 and early morning hours of Feb. 3 unfolded at Beta Theta Pi, according to the report, which cited evidence including video from surveillance cameras, testimony and phone records:

On the night of Feb. 2, Piazza engaged in drinking as a part of a pledge ritual and his blood alcohol content reached 0.28 and 0.36 percent.

His fall was not captured on surveillance cameras, but someone heard it, and when one man went to the top of the basement stairs, he saw Piazza lying facedown at the bottom. In a group message to other fraternity brothers at 11:53 p.m. that night, that man wrote, "Tim Piazza might actually be a problem. He fell 15 feet down a flight of stairs, hair-first, going to need help."

Surveillance video at 10:47 p.m. showed Piazza being carried upstairs by four fraternity brothers; in the video, his body appeared limp, his eyes were closed, he appeared unconscious, and a bruise was visible on his side. Piazza was placed on a couch, and liquid was dumped on his face twice, but he didn't respond either time.

About a half an hour after the fall, at 11:14 p.m., a newly initiated member saw Piazza lying on the couch, looking "horrible," he later told the grand jury. He saw Piazza "thrashing and making weird movements on the couch" and screamed at the fraternity brothers for help, stressing that Piazza needed to go to the hospital because he could have a concussion. One brother shoved the newly initiated member into a wall and said they had it under control.

At 11:25 p.m., the pledge master slapped Piazza three times in the face. At 11:37 p.m., one fraternity brother tackled another brother into the couch, physically landing on top of Piazza.

By 1 a.m., some brothers saw Piazza vomit and twitch on the couch. Three brothers filled a backpack with books and placed it on Piazza to try to keep him from rolling to his back if he passed out. At 1:48 a.m., Piazza rolled off the couch and to the floor, and three brothers picked him up and "slammed him onto the couch." One brother hit Piazza hard once in the abdomen.

By 2:38 a.m., Piazza rolled to the floor and at 3:16 p.m. his legs were moving. At 3:22 p.m., Piazza tried to stand and the backpack came off and he fell back, hitting his head on the hardwood floor. A fraternity brother attempted to shake him for a moment and then left the room.

At 3:46 a.m., Piazza was curled up on the floor in the fetal position with his knees toward his chest. At 3:49 a.m., Piazza positioned himself on his knees, bent over with his elbows on the floor and his head in his hands. At 3:54 a.m., he tried to stand but fell facedown on the floor. At 4:59 a.m., he stood and then fell head first into an iron railing, landing on a stone floor.

"He gets up again and attempts to go to the front door, but before he reaches it he falls head first into the door," the grand jury report says. He later rolled to his side, clutching his abdomen.

At 5:15 a.m., one brother came into the room, stepped over the injured pledge, looked at him and then left the room. At 5:26 a.m., another brother saw Piazza on the floor and walked him to another room but Piazza fell down three steps, and the brother stepped over him on the floor and left him there.

At about 10 a.m., fraternity members found the 19-year-old in the basement lying on his back, breathing heavily and with blood on his face. One brother said Piazza's eyes were half open and he felt cold. Three men carried Piazza's unconscious body upstairs and placed him back on the couch. Surveillance footage showed brothers shaking him and trying to prop him up. At 10:48 a.m., a fraternity member called 911 but did not say Piazza fell down the stairs the night before.
Click to expand...

So did they force the kid to drink or was it a "pledge ritual" where everyone just gets shit faced. If it is just a party where everyone gets shit faced, the these guys are just on the hook for not helping. That is different than hazing. They dumb and should have helped but if the kid got shit faced on his own, it is different. If they forced the kid to drink and then did nothing, they are on the hook for the whole deal.
 
so, if he's just a pledge hanging out and getting drunk "voluntarily" and this happens, you're fine with their behavior?

lolwut
 
DirtySouthDeacon said:
So did they force the kid to drink or was it a "pledge ritual" where everyone just gets shit faced. If it is just a party where everyone gets shit faced, the these guys are just on the hook for not helping. That is different than hazing. They dumb and should have helped but if the kid got shit faced on his own, it is different. If they forced the kid to drink and then did nothing, they are on the hook for the whole deal.
Click to expand...

While I disagree with your entire post, this is in the first line of the article:

On the night of Feb. 2, Piazza engaged in drinking as a part of a pledge ritual and his blood alcohol content reached 0.28 and 0.36 percent.
Click to expand...
 
Deacsfan27 said:
While I disagree with your entire post, this is in the first line of the article:
Click to expand...

Right, that is my point. If this ritual is just "lets party" then it is on the kid until they did nothing. They are dumb and should be punished. Just saying the "pledge ritual" does not equal forced drinking and hazing. And ITC, I said they should be punished. Just for what is the question. OBV, they should have helped the kid. Consequences aside, if you fall down the steps face first, help the kid out.
 
That timeline is terrible. Looking at it, the actions they took (punch in the gut, backpack) made the problem worse. Two more falls after the initial one didn't help. Bad bad bad.
 
As an aside, freshman year, my roommate got hammered on beer bongs and snake bite shots. He puked 30 times and was in really bad shape. I carried him down to student health and they ended up writing us both up for underage drinking. It sucked, but at least he did not fucking die.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Too lazy to look up the link yourself, yet not too lazy to type a 335 word summary of what you think happened without any knowledge on the situation at all.

Classic.
Click to expand...

Go fuck yourself. Sometimes busy, sometimes not.
 
EatLeadCommie said:
That timeline is terrible. Looking at it, the actions they took (punch in the gut, backpack) made the problem worse. Two more falls after the initial one didn't help. Bad bad bad.
Click to expand...

On an aside, why would you ever punch, slap, or pour water on somebody who is that drunk? How could they possibly think that would help?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top