It's happening before my very eyes...

[ChrisL68]

I would give [Redacted] more credit for "cleaning up' things if he had actually, you know, "cleaned up" things. He got rid of players after they publicly got into trouble just like would have happened under any coach.

 

[mothersodear]

UGH.

You are so old. It boggles my mind that anybody could actually think what you typed there. Astonishing.

I'm old, too, but I definitely think our current basketball program is miles and miles from where it's been and where it should be.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

It really is annoying because the firing of Dino was justified from a basketball perspective. The only reason people remember Dino fondly is because the replacement has lost so many games. In an alternative universe, if Wellman had hired the 2010 version of Mike White, he could have gotten away with any Ath Dept spin he wanted. But no sympathy for Wellman - when you fire an average coach and replace him with a coach that has been this awful the reasons concocted for the change are going to be dissected.

This is absolutely correct. I wrote a couple of articles during the time period that we were collapsing down the stretch again in Dino's last year that he should be fired. If I recall correctly it was about a 40/60 breakdown (40% thought he should be fired, 60% thought he deserved another year). Reasonable minds could absolutely differ on whether or not he should have been retained after the third year, but firing him wasn't a huge deal - hiring [Redacted] was.

Another issue here is that there are plenty of people here who do not appreciate the mutual exclusivity of the two decisions of firing Dino and hiring [Redacted]. Of course one led to the other, but firing Dino was not necessarily going to stick us with [Redacted].

Great post FckVwls

 

[Wakeforest22890]

Great post. That's exactly what I'm seeing. Unfortunately, there are many posters on this board whose minds were made up a long time ago and their egos will not permit them to admit that they might be wrong. This is not really surprising, when you think about it.....though it is kind of sad. These people have got to be hurting with each new WF win. I feel the best about WF basketball that I've felt in a long time.

Damn silly me. I think I felt much better when Wake was number one in the country twice over a six year period and making NCAA Tournaments on a regular basis.

 

[mothersodear]

This is absolutely correct. I wrote a couple of articles during the time period that we were collapsing down the stretch again in Dino's last year that he should be fired. If I recall correctly it was about a 40/60 breakdown (40% thought he should be fired, 60% thought he deserved another year). Reasonable minds could absolutely differ on whether or not he should have been retained after the third year, but firing him wasn't a huge deal - hiring [Redacted] was.

Another issue here is that there are plenty of people here who do not appreciate the mutual exclusivity of the two decisions of firing Dino and hiring [Redacted]. Of course one led to the other, but firing Dino was not necessarily going to stick us with [Redacted].

Great post FckVwls

I hope Bzz wasn't Wellman's first choice...or his second or third, for that matter. I'd like to think he was a last resort in RW's mind. Not sure that's the case, tho.

 

[morrison2951]

Given our resources, history, conference and NBA Deacs, this season is kind of the bare minimum in terms of what we should expect from a WFU basketball team. You would have to try really hard to do much worse than we have this year.

Patience young grasshopper. Bzz will always find a way to underachieve.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

That's because all you young guys are interested in is winning. You don't care how far you have to bend over to do it. I realize that all the haughty bluebloods that populate WF these days are used to having everything they want in life, but you can't be a snobby, elitist academic institution and recruit a bunch of James Johnsons to play basketball at the same time. How far did they have to torch their academic standards to get him in school, anyway? I remember that it wasn't easy. Once you start bending your rules and sacrificing your standards, though, you will do it again.....and it gets easier & easier each time you do it. That's where we were going with Dino....until the BOT and others decided that this wasn't the direction they wanted their alma mater to go. Anyone with any common sense or deductive prowess at all understands that, with a 61-31 record, Dino wasn't fired because he wasn't winning enough basketball games. I don't see why that is so hard for these WF whiz kids to understand.

jesus H. christ you're so far up your own ass you can't tell reality from your own fantasy land

 

[HONDO2]

msd -

I hope Bzz wasn't Wellman's first choice...or his second or third, for that matter. I'd like to think he was a last resort in RW's mind. Not sure that's the case, tho.

He wasn't. Brad Stevens was #1 and then he went after Bo Ryan. After both - for varying reasons - said 'no thanks' it gets foggy as to who else was contacted before Buzz.

Obviously, RW didn't think he wouldn't get Stevens. Frankly, alot of folks both inside and outside of Wake thought it was going to happen but it didn't. Ryan listened but turned out he was pretty entrenched at Wisky.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

msd -



He wasn't. Brad Stevens was #1 and then he went after Bo Ryan. After both - for varying reasons - said 'no thanks' it gets foggy as to who else was contacted before Buzz.

Obviously, RW didn't think he wouldn't get Stevens. Frankly, alot of folks both inside and outside of Wake thought it was going to happen but it didn't. Ryan listened but turned out he was pretty entrenched at Wisky.

So the list was Stevens, Ryan, and Bz. Jesus.

 

[Wheredeac]

I’d be willing to bet that Wellman thought that Bz, given his X’s and O’s acumen, would build smart, veteran teams at Wake Forest that would be more successful than the Dino athleticism model – particularly in the post season.

After that wasn’t working, it was an easy transition to the culture change narrative to save face. They likely did plan day 1 to change the program to a smarter/more veteran team compared to the Dino era (but for strategic reasons). It was a natural extension to shift that strategic change into improving the “culture” of the program to mask bad results.

I don't know which team you're watching but in the past few games I've seen nothing but a group of smart, tough-nosed, athletic and excited young men (a majority of sophomores, one senior and one grad student) playing their tails off and successfully running complex sets and secondary fast breaks that we haven't seen at the Joel in years.

The student section on the lower level at the ND game was filled to capacity and by the 10 minute mark in the first half there were four rows of students in the balcony section, which we haven't seen since 2006. The culture narrative is quickly becoming icing on the cake for RW. Not only did WF bring in an entire class of high character recruits and invest a season in their development; now those same recruits are beginning to play together and win. Will they become an overnight sensation? No. But the progress since last year is more than evident and it's happening without the NCAA or the W-S PD sniffing around.

 

[BabyDeac75]

Good gosh ... it truly is a shame that ignorance isnt painful. rbitbuddy:

 

[DeacDaddy]

I remember with absolute detailed precision the very moment when I knew that the brand-new coach was not the answer for Wake Forest basketball. It was plain as day. And I'm sure most other posters on this board could say the same. I don't understand how it takes some people four years or longer to figure out what was evident in 24 hours for others. Or how Wellman ever thought this would be a good move when he's supposed to be the expert at hiring, and we could see plainly what he failed to recognize.

It's almost fascinatingly mystifying, if it weren't so absurdly frustrating.

 

[Goolsbyrules]

I don't know which team you're watching but in the past few games I've seen nothing but a group of smart, tough-nosed, athletic and excited young men (a majority of sophomores, one senior and one grad student) playing their tails off and successfully running complex sets and secondary fast breaks that we haven't seen at the Joel in years.

The student section on the lower level at the ND game was filled to capacity and by the 10 minute mark in the first half there were four rows of students in the balcony section, which we haven't seen since 2006. The culture narrative is quickly becoming icing on the cake for RW. Not only did WF bring in an entire class of high character recruits and invest a season in their development; now those same recruits are beginning to play together and win. Will they become an overnight sensation? No. But the progress since last year is more than evident and it's happening without the NCAA or the W-S PD sniffing around.

So after spending over 4 million dollars on Bzz, not to mention Dinos buyout, Wake Fans are supposed to be happy about winning 14 games for the first time in 5 years. Watch what happens Wednesday night and you will see how far Wake has come. All the blame falls on Wellman, you could pay the minister at my church 100k to come clean up the program, and his sermons are way better than watching bzz and Welmman do anything. I am stunned that the powers that be accept this false party line. Bzz will never be the answer for Wake Basketball, anyone who has seen him coach or interacted with him knows this to be true. Bzz isnt evil, he just isnt the man to lead Wake at this time or ever.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I don't know which team you're watching but in the past few games I've seen nothing but a group of smart, tough-nosed, athletic and excited young men (a majority of sophomores, one senior and one grad student) playing their tails off and successfully running complex sets and secondary fast breaks that we haven't seen at the Joel in years.

The student section on the lower level at the ND game was filled to capacity and by the 10 minute mark in the first half there were four rows of students in the balcony section, which we haven't seen since 2006. The culture narrative is quickly becoming icing on the cake for RW. Not only did WF bring in an entire class of high character recruits and invest a season in their development; now those same recruits are beginning to play together and win. Will they become an overnight sensation? No. But the progress since last year is more than evident and it's happening without the NCAA or the W-S PD sniffing around.

So you're saying that a group of sophomores got better than when they were freshmen? Wake Forest basketball is irrelevant. Bz's best year is on par with the worst years of Odom, Prosser, or Dino.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

I don't know which team you're watching but in the past few games I've seen nothing but a group of smart, tough-nosed, athletic and excited young men (a majority of sophomores, one senior and one grad student) playing their tails off and successfully running complex sets and secondary fast breaks that we haven't seen at the Joel in years.

The student section on the lower level at the ND game was filled to capacity and by the 10 minute mark in the first half there were four rows of students in the balcony section, which we haven't seen since 2006. The culture narrative is quickly becoming icing on the cake for RW. Not only did WF bring in an entire class of high character recruits and invest a season in their development; now those same recruits are beginning to play together and win. Will they become an overnight sensation? No. But the progress since last year is more than evident and it's happening without the NCAA or the W-S PD sniffing around.

holy shit happy times are here again!

 

[Ayo]

It's truly terrifying that there are probably 50 other big money old white dudes who have the same viewpoints as bkf.

 

[birdman]

I think the point has been made, but I'll repeat it: this season will be, at best, equivalent to a bad/unsatisfactory year under Odom or Prosser. Either coach would have landed on the year end coaching hot seat lists if they put together 2 consecutive season like the one we have seen so far. In fact, Odom lost his job for three of 4 consecutive seasons that were much better than what we are seeing now.

I don't think anyone wants to win at all costs, but we would like to win... consistently and not feel the need to storm the court or roll the quad for squeaker wins over weak competition. You can build a program with integrity that also wins, but you need a good coach and a good recruiter to do it. We don't have a good coach, and while Jeff Battle has been a great recruiter for us over the years, it seems like the [Redacted] product is getting really hard for even him to sell.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

It's truly terrifying that there are probably 50 other big money old white dudes who have the same viewpoints as bkf.

The more terrifying thing is how willing BKF is to sympathize with the cause when it's against almost everything else he stands for.

BKF just likes to hold the opposite opinion. He is the ultimate contrarian. If everyone said [Redacted] is a great coach he would say "he's no Bob Knight" and say wake should do better.

 

[pourdeac]

My point is there is huge gap between what the Ath Dept is selling: “Sure we were winning but our program was a mess and we needed to clean it up - even at the expense of winning - with more 4 year student athletes”

And, what I think happened: “Look at Butler. If we have a smarter, more veteran team with an X’s and O’s coach we won’t flame out early every post season like with Dino. Need more four year student athletes ….. [2 years later] Oh wait, that strategy isn’t working? Well at least let’s emphasize to the public that we have four year kids in the program now, as compared to before, and at least get some credit for improvement in that area."

The culture talk started right out of the gate though. That has one of the strange things. Culture was questioned but we retained all the coaches, players, and recruits....which means to me Dino was considered to be THE "bad culture". It's almost like it got personal for Wellman and he let things get to him. I think Wellman aimed to do the Brad Stevens strategy and thought Bz was his guy (after maybe some rejections) but didn't expect all those losses to easy teams that pissed off the fans or the awkward PR. Improving culture was just all that was left standing and with awkward Bz hammering it, things just turned south fast.

 

[Wheredeac]

So you're saying that a group of sophomores got better than when they were freshmen? Wake Forest basketball is irrelevant. Bz's best year is on par with the worst years of Odom, Prosser, or Dino.

Actually, Turd, that is exactly what I am saying. The program was intentionally deconstructed for a variety of well documented reasons including arrests, residence hall policy violation nightmares, classroom problems and NCAA issues. And a year after bringing in a fresh group of recruits (highest rated was one 4-star recruit) we are competing with and defeating teams full of McDonald's All-Americans and upperclassmen. What am I missing other than that you just don't like [Redacted] and you would prefer instant results?