• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

President Obama to propose 2 years of free community college for all students

Please list what you consider to be upper middle class entitlements.
 
Karma, don't be dense. There are entitlements at each rung of the ladder. 529s are an example. Plenty of people with lower income don't benefit from it. You do and you obviously believe you're entitled to it.
 
I'm not being dense. I asked you to list what you consider them to be.
 
Mortgage deductions, tax shelters, capital gains tax rates. I'm sure there are plenty more I don't know about because I didn't grow up upper middle class.

Anything that you need money to take advantage of that dramatically lowers your tax rate.
 
PhDeac said:
Mortgage deductions, tax shelters, capital gains tax rates. I'm sure there are plenty more I don't know about because I didn't grow up upper middle class.

Anything that you need money to take advantage of that dramatically lowers your tax rate.
Click to expand...

State/local tax deduction, though obviously you Floridians have no idea what state taxes are since you just tax tourists.

Add on that things that are deductions and not credits are set up to benefit mostly high earners
 
PhDeac said:
Mortgage deductions, tax shelters, capital gains tax rates. I'm sure there are plenty more I don't know about because I didn't grow up upper middle class.

Anything that you need money to take advantage of that dramatically lowers your tax rate.
Click to expand...

Something that you have to use your own money to take advantage of is an entitlement?
 
PhDeac said:
Sure, they aren't mutually exclusive, but Obama's got to pay for it somehow and somebody is going to be pissed at how he does it. And again, if you can't get past 529s, you probably won't give up the mortgage deduction or any of the big upper-middle class entitlements.
Click to expand...

We already pay for community college. It's called the pell grant. You said it was $4000 a year for community college. Pell grant is 5700. We already have a plan for both the lower class to go free and the middle and upper class to save their own money and pay.
 
Last edited:
Only conservatives get to decode what constitutes an entitlement. Good try PH.
 
Liquid Karma said:
Something that you have to use your own money to take advantage of is an entitlement?
Click to expand...

Yeah. Free money is free money.

The $1000 someone gets from the government because they don't have any money is the same as the $1000 someone gets because they have an extra $10000 they don't have to spend by the end of the year.

So what tax reforms are you actually in favor of, Karma?
 
PhDeac said:
Yeah. Free money is free money.

The $1000 someone gets from the government because they don't have any money is the same as the $1000 someone gets because they have an extra $10000 they don't have to spend by the end of the year.

So what tax reforms are you actually in favor of, Karma?
Click to expand...

Is that serious? So the money that someone makes by taking an educated risk with his already-earned money by investing it in a business/product that may or may not pay back the principal or make any additional income is the same as the money the government takes from said earner and simply hands over to someone else? One of those is free, the other is definitely not.
 
agree with PH, free money is free money. just because you had to "risk" or "invest" capital doesn't make it not-free. It just means it was available to you to begin with. Is writing off a capital loss not an entitlement? That one is more of a head-scratcher than the child deduction
 
Calling a program an entitlement because it might lower your tax rate to slightly less than your theoretical maximum is an..interesting..way to think about it. Especially in the context where we are talking about top earners who already pay well above the median tax rate.

If the 529 are eliminated then income caps on the other education tax programs should be lifted.

In general...I am fine if you are going to tax me more because I have a high income, but be upfront about it, don't try to hide it behind a bunch of rules.
 
Last edited:
PhDeac said:
Yeah. Free money is free money.

The $1000 someone gets from the government because they don't have any money is the same as the $1000 someone gets because they have an extra $10000 they don't have to spend by the end of the year.

So what tax reforms are you actually in favor of, Karma?
Click to expand...

Agree. "free money IS free money."

Having to pay less in taxes is not free. You had to earn it in the first place, which is markedly different than a check just shows up in the mail. Let's have an, ahem, open and honest dialogue about entitlements, but this isn't one. For ease of reference, let's draw the line at "some effort required."
 
TuffaloDeac10 said:
So OASDI is not an entitlement, then. Got it.
Click to expand...

Pours coffee, logs on, checks the OGB....

Soft, millennial rich kids struggling to ascertain the differences between earning things, being given things and being able to take things from other people?
Yep, soft, millennial rich kids struggling to ascertain the differences between earning things, being given things and being able to take things from other people.

SNAFU. And....scene.
 
WFU Lurker said:
Calling a program an entitlement because it might lower your tax rate to slightly less than your theoretical maximum is an..interesting..way to think about it. Especially in the context where we are talking about top earners who already pay well above the median tax rate.

If the 529 are eliminated then income caps on the other education tax programs should be lifted.

In general...I am fine if you are going to tax me more because I have a high income, but be upfront about it, don't try to hide it behind a bunch of rules.
Click to expand...

From the group of people that came up with the euphemism "spending through the tax code."

Don't spend years talking about shifting the tax burden to the 1% to benefit the poor and then marginalize the upper middle class by removing a plan that encourages them to save for college. While families in that 150-200k range are certainly comfortable, we are by no means wealthy. This income group will see little to no financial aid (outside of student loans) to send their kids to increasingly more expensive colleges, and the 529 plan, while a small time investment vehicle to help them save, is better than nothing. Until recent legislation that finally started indexing the AMT to inflation, they got smoked by the AMT on an annual basis as well. There is a huge gap between the poor/middle class and the wealthy in this country. That means there are a lot of people stuck in between, and they have phased out of almost every meaningful deduction other than the mortgage interest deduction. They make too much to receive many breaks from the tax code, but don't make enough to rape and pillage the tax code the way the truly wealthy do. They don't need any more help, but they really don't need any more of the burden shifted to them by taking any more from them than is already being done.

You'll get zero argument from me that the poor get shit on in this country. I'm all for tax changes that alleviate their burden and improve their situation, and there is a small group of ultra wealthy persons in this country with the means to subsidize that tax reform. It's the people who have made a fortune during the recession and for years before that at the expense of those who need the help the most. You will never hear me complain that it's unfair for the poor and middle class to have access to mortgage or student loan interest deductions (I do however question whether abolishing both would actually be better for everyone...reign in college and housing costs). You won't hear me complain about child care credits. What you will hear me complain about is a tax code that marginalizes the upper part of the middle class, particularly when people have to do mental gymnastics to proclaim that a tax advantaged college savings plan, where a person puts in their own already taxed dollars and can only withdraw it for a single purpose without paying a penalty, is an entitlement. It's not an entitlement, it's an inducement to encourage a specific responsible behavior and likely wouldn't need to exist if college costs weren't escalating out of control.

And I'm not trying to elicit pity for the poor poor upper middle class. I'm well aware, and more grateful than you can imagine, for what my wife and I have been able to build together. We are very fortunate and give back as much as we can over the course of the year, but I'm also admittedly very sensitive to issues that I feel affect my own situation.

Countdown until PhDeac reduces my entire position to "you only vote with your wallet then?"
 
jhmd, can you list the entitlements that require no effort? Don't give hypotheticals. Just as they are created, which entitlements require no effort whatsoever?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top