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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

IamThunderbolt said:
Honestly, I have no idea when life begins, but I know that at some point it does.

I've sat with numerous families and grieved the loss of the life of an unborn child. Unborn babies who did not reach full development and birth are not an abstract concept to me. I know what it’s like to see a mom and dad cry over their lifeless child who just hours ago, was growing and developing in her mother’s womb.
This “issue” isn’t an “issue” at all for me, but is about real babies I have held. As a result, I am pro-life. I will always be pro-life.

But, I do not trust most right wing pro life groups. I think they’re dishonest. I think the makers of the video in question were being dishonest in how they sold their narrative. That video wasn’t ever really about “selling organs”—that was just a headline they used to get people to hear how heartless Nucatola sounded as she described her methods.

I think many pro life groups’s tactics, memes, and political strategies are terrible—often dehumanizing and mean spirited. Furthermore, I believe if they were half as concerned with life after birth as they are with life before birth, we might actually reduce the number of abortions that happen in this country, which I think all of us can agree would be a very good thing. It’s very easy to be ultra pro life when that life is unborn. All it requires is a strong point of view and a sign. Being pro life after birth is much harder and actually requires more skill than the ability to be obnoxious.
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I am not the member of any pro-life or right-wing group. I would just like to get some clarity on when human life begins rather than continue to drift along and encourage people decide the question based on their momentary convenience. Who is human and who is not is much too important to ignore, sweep under the rug, or pretend that the question does not exist. We as human beings have a shameful history of denying other people their humanity. We should not nonchalantly ignore the matter. If we are going to have abortions, let's be clear about what we are doing.
 
IamThunderbolt said:
Honestly, I have no idea when life begins, but I know that at some point it does.

I've sat with numerous families and grieved the loss of the life of an unborn child. Unborn babies who did not reach full development and birth are not an abstract concept to me. I know what it’s like to see a mom and dad cry over their lifeless child who just hours ago, was growing and developing in her mother’s womb.
This “issue” isn’t an “issue” at all for me, but is about real babies I have held. As a result, I am pro-life. I will always be pro-life.

But, I do not trust most right wing pro life groups. I think they’re dishonest. I think the makers of the video in question were being dishonest in how they sold their narrative. That video wasn’t ever really about “selling organs”—that was just a headline they used to get people to hear how heartless Nucatola sounded as she described her methods.

I think many pro life groups’s tactics, memes, and political strategies are terrible—often dehumanizing and mean spirited. Furthermore, I believe if they were half as concerned with life after birth as they are with life before birth, we might actually reduce the number of abortions that happen in this country, which I think all of us can agree would be a very good thing. It’s very easy to be ultra pro life when that life is unborn. All it requires is a strong point of view and a sign. Being pro life after birth is much harder and actually requires more skill than the ability to be obnoxious.
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Great post.
 
sailordeac said:
I am not the member of any pro-life or right-wing group. I would just like to get some clarity on when human life begins rather than continue to drift along and encourage people decide the question based on their momentary convenience. Who is human and who is not is much too important to ignore, sweep under the rug, or pretend that the question does not exist. We as human beings have a shameful history of denying other people their humanity. We should not nonchalantly ignore the matter. If we are going to have abortions, let's be clear about what we are doing.
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It seems like a good place to begin would be to determine what the essential characteristics of human life are, and then determine at what point we obtain all of those characteristics.
 
IamThunderbolt said:
Honestly, I have no idea when life begins, but I know that at some point it does.

I've sat with numerous families and grieved the loss of the life of an unborn child. Unborn babies who did not reach full development and birth are not an abstract concept to me. I know what it’s like to see a mom and dad cry over their lifeless child who just hours ago, was growing and developing in her mother’s womb.
This “issue” isn’t an “issue” at all for me, but is about real babies I have held. As a result, I am pro-life. I will always be pro-life.

But, I do not trust most right wing pro life groups. I think they’re dishonest. I think the makers of the video in question were being dishonest in how they sold their narrative. That video wasn’t ever really about “selling organs”—that was just a headline they used to get people to hear how heartless Nucatola sounded as she described her methods.

I think many pro life groups’s tactics, memes, and political strategies are terrible—often dehumanizing and mean spirited. Furthermore, I believe if they were half as concerned with life after birth as they are with life before birth, we might actually reduce the number of abortions that happen in this country, which I think all of us can agree would be a very good thing. It’s very easy to be ultra pro life when that life is unborn. All it requires is a strong point of view and a sign. Being pro life after birth is much harder and actually requires more skill than the ability to be obnoxious.
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Absolutely spot on.
 
What should happen in a situation where a woman undergoes IVF, knowing not all of the embryos will implant? What should happen to the lab when they dispose of the other, unused embryos after a successful procedure?

If life begins at conception, it seems there are some people who are escaping the law.
 
IamThunderbolt said:
Honestly, I have no idea when life begins, but I know that at some point it does.

I've sat with numerous families and grieved the loss of the life of an unborn child. Unborn babies who did not reach full development and birth are not an abstract concept to me. I know what it’s like to see a mom and dad cry over their lifeless child who just hours ago, was growing and developing in her mother’s womb.
This “issue” isn’t an “issue” at all for me, but is about real babies I have held. As a result, I am pro-life. I will always be pro-life.

But, I do not trust most right wing pro life groups. I think they’re dishonest. I think the makers of the video in question were being dishonest in how they sold their narrative. That video wasn’t ever really about “selling organs”—that was just a headline they used to get people to hear how heartless Nucatola sounded as she described her methods.

I think many pro life groups’s tactics, memes, and political strategies are terrible—often dehumanizing and mean spirited. Furthermore, I believe if they were half as concerned with life after birth as they are with life before birth, we might actually reduce the number of abortions that happen in this country, which I think all of us can agree would be a very good thing. It’s very easy to be ultra pro life when that life is unborn. All it requires is a strong point of view and a sign. Being pro life after birth is much harder and actually requires more skill than the ability to be obnoxious.
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Let's assume every word of this opinion is the Gospel. If person A is obnoxious, can person B hurt innocent, defenseless beings? These two thoughts go together, sure, but one does not excuse the other.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Let's assume every word of this opinion is the Gospel. If person A is obnoxious, can person B hurt innocent, defenseless beings? These two thoughts go together, sure, but one does not excuse the other.
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Not at all. I don't disagree with you on that point, but the way the pro-life movement has acted hasn't pushed the needle toward abortion limits (that I see, it has just further entrenched both sides around inflammatory rhetoric - and yes, the pro-choice side is just as bad - that HRC is getting flak for saying the tone of the video is disturbing, which pretty much everyone agrees on, is ridiculous). The pro-life movement would be more successful in my opinion if it worked toward goals that reduced abortion AND legislated abortion limits, rather than just trying to yell louder. From my perspective, it would also be more effective if it were more consistent in it's message that all life matters.

These are not my words, but my thoughts:

Pro-life needs to be redefined to mean what it says. Pro-life. All life. Unborn life. Post-born life. Immigrant life. Iraqi life. Afghani life. Convicted murder life. Life of the innocent, life of the guilty. If God made it, we say it’s valuable– and we don’t let culture diminish that value regardless of whether or not that life is obscured by a maternity dress, death row bars, or by a pixelated drone camera.
 
IamThunderbolt said:
Not at all. I don't disagree with you on that point, but the way the pro-life movement has acted hasn't pushed the needle toward abortion limits (that I see, it has just further entrenched both sides around inflammatory rhetoric - and yes, the pro-choice side is just as bad - that HRC is getting flak for saying the tone of the video is disturbing, which pretty much everyone agrees on, is ridiculous). The pro-life movement would be more successful in my opinion if it worked toward goals that reduced abortion AND legislated abortion limits, rather than just trying to yell louder. From my perspective, it would also be more effective if it were more consistent in it's message that all life matters.

These are not my words, but my thoughts:

Pro-life needs to be redefined to mean what it says. Pro-life. All life. Unborn life. Post-born life. Immigrant life. Iraqi life. Afghani life. Convicted murder life. Life of the innocent, life of the guilty. If God made it, we say it’s valuable– and we don’t let culture diminish that value regardless of whether or not that life is obscured by a maternity dress, death row bars, or by a pixelated drone camera.
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I think that's fair. Good post.
 
The anti abortion crowd has been very very successful pushing through abortion limits and they've bent "undue burden" to the damn breaking point. You know who those abortion limits affect the most? Poors and racial minorities. You aren't saving any white suburban fetuses with your regressive legislation, your just making sure that your poor single mothers with 2 kids also has that 3rd.
 
if only JH cared about the lives of children after they're outside the womb

#smallgovernment
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
The anti abortion crowd has been very very successful pushing through abortion limits and they've bent "undue burden" to the damn breaking point. You know who those abortion limits affect the most? Poors and racial minorities. You aren't saving any white suburban fetuses with your regressive legislation, your just making sure that your poor single mothers with 2 kids also has that 3rd.
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Which is why I have always said that these factors must be addressed in conjunction with abortion limits and that addressing these issues is more important than any legislative limits.

And to your earlier statement, yes, I have held child that was lost around 25 weeks and delivered stillborn.
 
IamThunderbolt said:
Which is why I have always said that these factors must be addressed in conjunction with abortion limits and that addressing these issues is more important than any legislative limits.

And to your earlier statement, yes, I have held child that was lost around 25 weeks and delivered stillborn.
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I'm sorry for being aggressive towards your posts, you've been very measured and reasonable. As for your experience in handling a stillborn, I was wrong to doubt. A friend's mother that Ive spent time with works in a pregnancy center In eastern NC and she often recounts similar stories of seeing stillborns and abortions, and the ages change every time she tells the stories.
 
Curious if you guys think the liberal/conservative sides would line up differently if men had babies rather than women.

Would there be cries of murder from liberal groups directed at men as opposed to the right to choose. How much of this issue is empowering women and disempowering men in regards to women's bodies and has little to do with the rightness or wrongness of the abortion itself.

It seems like the issue of killing of the unborn would be a natural fit for liberals, particularly if this put them on the opposite side of powerful men. Even more so if most abortions were had by white men.

I would think that if men had babies this issue would be the current greatest issue of the left.
 
No. Only the conservative side would change.
 
if men had babies humans would die after one generation
 
ImTheCaptain said:
if only JH cared about the lives of children after they're outside the womb

#smallgovernment
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Riiiight. Because your policies have worked so well over the last 50 years. Slow clap for the Great Society on three...
 
jhmd2000 said:
Riiiight. Because your policies have worked so well over the last 50 years. Slow clap for the Great Society on three...
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The libs are concerned that they appear to care. The effectiveness of their policies is less important. It's all about them, not the people they are ostensibly trying to help.
 
hey, I'm not zombie LBJ. My policy would allow abortions and the donation fetal tissue for research purposes.
 
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