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Wake Forest vs. Louisville Game Thread - Sunday. 8PM ESPNU

The 2016 class may not feature a ton of highly rated kids, but they fit needs. It is also clear with Collins and Crawford (and perhaps Moore, we will see), that Manning can identify and recruit good players regardless of ranking.
 
I like dt's confidence but we still have to deliver the wins to prove it.
 
PhDeac said:
I'm starting to get a sense of what Manning wants the offense to look like next year. Collins dominating the post. Dinos burying the corner three. Crawford working the ball around and going hard to the basket. We're just missing players at the 2 and 3 who can hit a damn shot. That explains his whole recruiting philosophy last cycle.
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Exactly. Washington and Woods will be knocking down outside shots from the 2 and 3 and Crawford and Chill will be hitting them from the PG position.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
The 2016 class may not feature a ton of highly rated kids, but they fit needs. It is also clear with Collins and Crawford (and perhaps Moore, we will see), that Manning can identify and recruit good players regardless of ranking.
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We were under the impression that we needed 2016 to be the stud class. 2015 was already the stud class so 2016 is the role player class.
 
I think Woods is going to be huge for us. Not only does he shoot well from 3's, he also shoots a high percentage from 2's on a fair amount of shots (but with limited foul shots), meaning he can likely hit some good mid-range jumpers as well.
 
I also think woods is a sleeper. Will be in his 3rd year and has already proven he can score at the mid major level. Watching Louisvilles wing players last night made me so jealous.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
Nonetheless, it's an Ish-Teague scenario where the return of the older guard has failed to improve the team.
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I agree with your premise in that a previous starting player returning from an injury is taking away minutes from a younger more talented player while the team did not improve; however, the two situations are really night and day. Our Program was still at its height, we were ranked #1 that year, but now we are trying to rebuild to even have a shot at becoming a Program ranked #1.

Ish only missed 2 games in the beginning of that season, but was only playing 7-15 minutes a game until about 1/2-2/3 of the way through non-conference games then his minutes started going up to 20-25 a game, then closer to 25-30 during conference games. On the other hand, CMM missed the first 8 games of the season, almost 25% of a season.

- First, Ish was a talented player that belonged in the ACC (He has to have some talent, since leaving WFU he has been a journeyman player in the NBA for the past 6 seasons ). On the other hand, CMM is a borderline ACC player, who is more suited as a backup/role player due to his limited skill set.

- If you look at both of them from the POV as just a PG, then I see the following. First, both were limited when it came to shooting in general. Each were/are poor shooters mid range, 3 Point, and Free Throw. Their games are limited to being a faciliter of the offense and being a decent defender on defense. However, Ish was much more talented when compared to CMM. He was one of the fastest players I have ever seen, but more importantly he had a much higher basketball IQ. Since I have made the argument that their role as a PG is to distribute the ball on offense, then the main stat to look at is Assist/TO ratio were Ish had a 1.9 and CMM currently has a 1.5.

- More importantly is how each of them preformed at the end of a game. I have only been watching WFU BBall since roughly 90/91, and if I had to choose 1 player to have the ball in his hands down 1-2 points with 10 seconds left in the game, besides Chilldress I would choose Ish (one could make an argument for Downey or CP3). On the other hand, how many times just last year alone did CMM have the ball in his hands during the last minute with the game on the line only to commit a TO. CMM is the definition of anti-clutch in that he can't even get a shot off before turning the ball over to the other team.

- From a more Marco-POV, when Ish came back from injury compared to CMM, our Program was in a completely different position. In 08-09, once we were ranked #1 we went 2-4 the following 6 games, but we finished the ACC season winning 6 out of 7 and ranked #8th in the AP. Now we are trying to rebuild our Program to get back to what we once were. IMO, I believe its better to just forget about CMM, and if it's still possible to red-shirt him, then I would do it just to give him an opportunity to play 1 final season some where else.

- In all honesty what benefit does CMM give us? We showed that we could win close games against quality teams without him. Also, since his return, if you take out his 1 good game against Coastal, then he is averaging 2.5ppg 3.0ast 2.75to and his fg% is .17 on 4-23 while averaging close to 27 minutes a game.Crawford has not only shown that he is more talented than CMM, but in general is just a better PG because he can shoot. More Importantly it is better to give Crawford as many minutes as he needs so he can get more experience and grow as a player because he is a key piece of in WFU's future to become the Program we once were. Furthermore, CMM has been taking minutes away from players that will be here the next 2-3 years Wilbekin and **Mitchell have been the primary players that have lost minutes, but both have a chance to be players that can be building blocks in future years. (VanHorn has basically been phased out of the lineup)

- My point is that I want WFU BBall to be what it was before [name redacted] blew everything up. If that means making a 3 year starter a player that comes off the bench for 5-10 minutes a game, then I'm fine with that because no player is bigger than the Program. It's not like it hasn't happened before, during Downey's freshman season he took the starting job away from Hicks, which is ironic because Downey lost his starting job to CP3.


** Since this post has been re-quoted multiple times, I meant to say McCliton not Mitchell. I apologize, I am only human, and I got my M's messed up.
 
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Those CMM numbers are horrific. He's a starting scoring combo guard putting up pass first back up PG numbers.
 
PhDeac said:
Those CMM numbers are horrific. He's a starting scoring combo guard putting up pass first back up PG numbers.
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What is even sadder is that if you include his game against Coastal, and project his stats over 40 minutes a game then they are the following.

6.5 PPG 4.5AST 4.0TO 26.7%FG% 12.5%3P% 66%FT%

I do need to state that this is a very limited sample size of only 5 games, and he is coming off an injured foot which I would assume limited his conditioning while he was injured (if he had a broken arm at least he could still run to keep in shape). Also since he is coming off an injured foot, then just how long will it take for him to be close to 100% in game condition; as well as, knocking off the rust of not playing basketball ? Halfway through the ACC season, the entire ACC season?

I really feel for the kid, but this is a huge season for our Program. Our play during the non-conference showed that we belong in the Postseason this year, now whether its the NCAA Tourney or NIT,I believe will be determined during conference play. However, with the minutes CMM averaging 27 MPG, roughly 31 the last 3 games, at what point does he become a liability to the team, growth of other players, and most importantly the Program.
 
BamaDeac said:
What is even sadder is that if you include his game against Coastal, and project his stats over 40 minutes a game then they are the following.

6.5 PPG 4.5AST 4.0TO 26.7%FG% 12.5%3P% 66%FT%

I do need to state that this is a very limited sample size of only 5 games, and he is coming off an injured foot which I would assume limited his conditioning while he was injured (if he had a broken arm at least he could still run to keep in shape). Also since he is coming off an injured foot, then just how long will it take for him to be close to 100% in game condition; as well as, knocking off the rust of not playing basketball ? Halfway through the ACC season, the entire ACC season?

I really feel for the kid, but this is a huge season for our Program. Our play during the non-conference showed that we belong in the Postseason this year, now whether its the NCAA Tourney or NIT,I believe will be determined during conference play. However, with the minutes CMM averaging 27 MPG, roughly 31 the last 3 games, at what point does he become a liability to the team, growth of other players, and most importantly the Program.
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While Codi has been getting his legs back over the past 5 games, BC has averaged 28 mpg, 15.2 ppg, 5.2 apg, 1.6 spg (all above his pre-Codi numbers) and TO have decreased from 4.5 per game to 3.0. I don't think anyone will argue that CMM should not be taking many (if any) of his minutes. However, BC is thriving alongside CMM. Don't forget he had one game with 8 TO and two games with 7 TO earlier this season and not being the exclusive primary ball handler and creator may be a good thing.
The question then becomes, are we better off playing BC only as a PG alongside either Wilbekin, Rondale or Hudson, or is our current lineup our best potential squad? I think the latter.
 
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The last 3 years CMM had to be a one man fast break, now he has the horses to run with him. We've seen a few fast breaks where CMM would have had to try and finish a contested layup where he's drawn the defender and dished it for the easy flush.

Just remember that quite a few people here questioned if Ish was an ACC player. People called Josh Howard a team cancer.

Just saying that internet evaluations are not always the best or most reliable.
 
Finally watched the streaming replay.

I saw Danny go after a ref. I saw Randolph barking hard at, presumably, his own player.

These two things I liked a lot.
 
At least CMM keeps TVH off the court - that should make us a little better right there.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
I think Woods is going to be huge for us. Not only does he shoot well from 3's, he also shoots a high percentage from 2's on a fair amount of shots (but with limited foul shots), meaning he can likely hit some good mid-range jumpers as well.
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Really like to hear this. Are you gathering this information from watching him play at UNCC, practicing with this WF team, or a combination of both? I've been cautiously optimistic that Woods could be a contributor from day one. Either way it's exciting to have a knockdown shooter in the fold for next year.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Really like to hear this. Are you gathering this information from watching him play at UNCC, practicing with this WF team, or a combination of both? I've been cautiously optimistic that Woods could be a contributor from day one. Either way it's exciting to have a knockdown shooter in the fold for next year.
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Just looking at his numbers from Charlotte last year. I'm guessing he starts next year.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
The 2016 class may not feature a ton of highly rated kids, but they fit needs. It is also clear with Collins and Crawford (and perhaps Moore, we will see), that Manning can identify and recruit good players regardless of ranking.
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I love shit like this. The fact that Collins and Crawford are at least competent freshman means the bold is true. Really? I think both of those guys are good players. Do you think we would have taken either one over Alonzo Trier, who we tried to get in with? Or Daniel Giddens? If Jamal Murray had committed in the spring of 2014, do you think Crawford would have gotten a scholarship? Coach Manning recruited the best players, period, and then we those folks turned him down, he recruited the best players who would consider Wake.

In 2016, we went after a number of kids more highly ranked than Washington, such as Markelle Fultz. When they turned us down, we obtained a commitment from Washington (and then Mitchell, who might be a better example). Wake didn't turn down highly ranked players to take Washington- we took him because he was the best guy we could get to accept a scholarship offer.

If 2015 proves that Coach Manning can "identify and recruit good players regardless of ranking," then I guess Cavanaugh, Fisher, and Thomas prove that [Redacted] could do the same.

I think Coach Manning has done a passable job recruiting since he got here. But he is a long way away from recruiting the talent necessary to have a top 25 team. Unless a couple other folks who were not ranked in the top 100 players in the country explode into All-ACC level players (assuming that Collins might have that potential in the next few years), then we don't have that type of talent on the roster.

In conclusion, fuck you, Doofus.
 
I think that post ignores how recruiting actually works.

Manning didn't go all-in on a bunch of 4/5 star guys, miss out on them, and then end up with Collins and Crawford. There was a lot of criticism in the early recruiting months when the staff was spending more time on lesser known 3 star guys than they were on bigger names. Manning and company have certainly missed on some guys, but it's accurate to say they did a better job than many other teams did evaluating those two players in particular.

The [name redacted] comparison is ridiculous. Successful recruiting isn't finding two gems out of 3 years or 2 players who are only good as seniors. Recruiting is a batting average. In 4 years [name redacted] barely recruited enough talent to be competitive with the bottom half of the ACC for a single year. Pretty much every player Manning has brought in has been productive. The entire 2015 class has elite potential.

It would be nearly impossible to find any analyst in college basketball that would label Manning's just as "passable" considering Wake's status when he arrived.
 
I think his recruiting has been passable. I think his coaching has been above-average.
 
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