Wake Forest vs. Louisville Game Thread - Sunday. 8PM ESPNU

[DCDeac]

I think his recruiting has been passable. I think his coaching has been above-average.

I'd rate them both as above average, but I get what you mean. Plus 2016 is a huge question mark. Year one I think Manning did a really good job patching together some last-minute talent. Identified Mitchell as a non-priority, brought in Wilbekin, found Dinos. Year two is looking like a home run. Zero recruiting momentum and all 3 guys look like NBA potential. But 2016 featured some high profile misses - and not just with Giles. Now we technically have no spots available so it's still an uphill battle.

While I love how this year has started and things are certainly looking up - we still got lucky edging out a few bad teams and we're still 0-1 in the ACC. We're also not going anywhere big with the production we're getting at the 2 and 3 spots. I still think it'll all come down to the 2nd half of the ACC season when we run through like 8 consecutive games against beatable teams. If everything is clicking by then we can make some serious waves in the league. That's when, to me, Manning will officially move into the "great" or "meh" category.

 

[wfu22fan]

I agree with your premise in that a previous starting player returning from an injury is taking away minutes from a younger more talented player while the team did not improve; however, the two situations are really night and day. Our Program was still at its height, we were ranked #1 that year, but now we are trying to rebuild to even have a shot at becoming a Program ranked #1.

Ish only missed 2 games in the beginning of that season, but was only playing 7-15 minutes a game until about 1/2-2/3 of the way through non-conference games then his minutes started going up to 20-25 a game, then closer to 25-30 during conference games. On the other hand, CMM missed the first 8 games of the season, almost 25% of a season.

- First, Ish was a talented player that belonged in the ACC (He has to have some talent, since leaving WFU he has been a journeyman player in the NBA for the past 6 seasons ). On the other hand, CMM is a borderline ACC player, who is more suited as a backup/role player due to his limited skill set.

- If you look at both of them from the POV as just a PG, then I see the following. First, both were limited when it came to shooting in general. Each were/are poor shooters mid range, 3 Point, and Free Throw. Their games are limited to being a faciliter of the offense and being a decent defender on defense. However, Ish was much more talented when compared to CMM. He was one of the fastest players I have ever seen, but more importantly he had a much higher basketball IQ. Since I have made the argument that their role as a PG is to distribute the ball on offense, then the main stat to look at is Assist/TO ratio were Ish had a 1.9 and CMM currently has a 1.5.

- More importantly is how each of them preformed at the end of a game. I have only been watching WFU BBall since roughly 90/91, and if I had to choose 1 player to have the ball in his hands down 1-2 points with 10 seconds left in the game, besides Chilldress I would choose Ish (one could make an argument for Downey or CP3). On the other hand, how many times just last year alone did CMM have the ball in his hands during the last minute with the game on the line only to commit a TO. CMM is the definition of anti-clutch in that he can't even get a shot off before turning the ball over to the other team.

- From a more Marco-POV, when Ish came back from injury compared to CMM, our Program was in a completely different position. In 08-09, once we were ranked #1 we went 2-4 the following 6 games, but we finished the ACC season winning 6 out of 7 and ranked #8th in the AP. Now we are trying to rebuild our Program to get back to what we once were. IMO, I believe its better to just forget about CMM, and if it's still possible to red-shirt him, then I would do it just to give him an opportunity to play 1 final season some where else.

- In all honesty what benefit does CMM give us? We showed that we could win close games against quality teams without him. Also, since his return, if you take out his 1 good game against Coastal, then he is averaging 2.5ppg 3.0ast 2.75to and his fg% is .17 on 4-23 while averaging close to 27 minutes a game.Crawford has not only shown that he is more talented than CMM, but in general is just a better PG because he can shoot. More Importantly it is better to give Crawford as many minutes as he needs so he can get more experience and grow as a player because he is a key piece of in WFU's future to become the Program we once were. Furthermore, CMM has been taking minutes away from players that will be here the next 2-3 years Wilbekin and Mitchell have been the primary players that have lost minutes, but both have a chance to be players that can be building blocks in future years. (VanHorn has basically been phased out of the lineup)

- My point is that I want WFU BBall to be what it was before [name redacted] blew everything up. If that means making a 3 year starter a player that comes off the bench for 5-10 minutes a game, then I'm fine with that because no player is bigger than the Program. It's not like it hasn't happened before, during Downey's freshman season he took the starting job away from Hicks, which is ironic because Downey lost his starting job to CP3.

This!!

 

[wfu22fan]

What is even sadder is that if you include his game against Coastal, and project his stats over 40 minutes a game then they are the following.

6.5 PPG 4.5AST 4.0TO 26.7%FG% 12.5%3P% 66%FT%

I do need to state that this is a very limited sample size of only 5 games, and he is coming off an injured foot which I would assume limited his conditioning while he was injured (if he had a broken arm at least he could still run to keep in shape). Also since he is coming off an injured foot, then just how long will it take for him to be close to 100% in game condition; as well as, knocking off the rust of not playing basketball ? Halfway through the ACC season, the entire ACC season?

I really feel for the kid, but this is a huge season for our Program. Our play during the non-conference showed that we belong in the Postseason this year, now whether its the NCAA Tourney or NIT,I believe will be determined during conference play. However, with the minutes CMM averaging 27 MPG, roughly 31 the last 3 games, at what point does he become a liability to the team, growth of other players, and most importantly the Program.

Agree 100%

 

[wfu22fan]

I love shit like this. The fact that Collins and Crawford are at least competent freshman means the bold is true. Really? I think both of those guys are good players. Do you think we would have taken either one over Alonzo Trier, who we tried to get in with? Or Daniel Giddens? If Jamal Murray had committed in the spring of 2014, do you think Crawford would have gotten a scholarship? Coach Manning recruited the best players, period, and then we those folks turned him down, he recruited the best players who would consider Wake.

In 2016, we went after a number of kids more highly ranked than Washington, such as Markelle Fultz. When they turned us down, we obtained a commitment from Washington (and then Mitchell, who might be a better example). Wake didn't turn down highly ranked players to take Washington- we took him because he was the best guy we could get to accept a scholarship offer.

If 2015 proves that Coach Manning can "identify and recruit good players regardless of ranking," then I guess Cavanaugh, Fisher, and Thomas prove that [Redacted] could do the same.

I think Coach Manning has done a passable job recruiting since he got here. But he is a long way away from recruiting the talent necessary to have a top 25 team. Unless a couple other folks who were not ranked in the top 100 players in the country explode into All-ACC level players (assuming that Collins might have that potential in the next few years), then we don't have that type of talent on the roster.

In conclusion, fuck you, Doofus.

Garbage, particularly the contention that Fisher and Cavanaugh were ACC level players. Fisher couldn't defend or get his shot off. He was slow. Cavanaugh couldn't jump over a phone book. Comparing them to our 2015 recruits is ridiculous.

 

[DeaconSig]

Garbage, particularly the contention that Fisher and Cavanaugh were ACC level players. Fisher couldn't defend or get his shot off. He was slow. Cavanaugh couldn't jump over a phone book. Comparing them to our 2015 recruits is ridiculous.

Impressive- 1:15 p.m. and already drunk as a skunk.

 

[Deacsfan27]

Is he really arguing that Cavanaugh isn't an ACC player?

He's the best player on a 12-2 team that has beaten six Power 5 teams this year already. Averaging 16 and 7, while shooting 57/41/85.

 

[Ralph Medlin]

Has anybody anywhere ever done an analysis of transfers and how they've performed at other schools relative to the school they left?

I would have to think Wake transfers would be at the top of any metric. Is it just because I only really look at Wake transfers?

 

[Strickland33]

Has anybody anywhere ever done an analysis of transfers and how they've performed at other schools relative to the school they left?

I would have to think Wake transfers would be at the top of any metric. Is it just because I only really look at Wake transfers?

I think it'd be a pretty common trend in the case of high major schools where players semi-regularly transfer down. Excluding the case of graduate transfers, transferring up or laterally is far less common and probably wouldn't result in "better" performances as often as in cases where high major players transfer down.

 

[LesJohns3D]

- In all honesty what benefit does CMM give us? We showed that we could win close games against quality teams without him. Also, since his return, if you take out his 1 good game against Coastal, then he is averaging 2.5ppg 3.0ast 2.75to and his fg% is .17 on 4-23 while averaging close to 27 minutes a game.Crawford has not only shown that he is more talented than CMM, but in general is just a better PG because he can shoot. More Importantly it is better to give Crawford as many minutes as he needs so he can get more experience and grow as a player because he is a key piece of in WFU's future to become the Program we once were. Furthermore, CMM has been taking minutes away from players that will be here the next 2-3 years Wilbekin and Mitchell have been the primary players that have lost minutes, but both have a chance to be players that can be building blocks in future years. (VanHorn has basically been phased out of the lineup)

- My point is that I want WFU BBall to be what it was before [name redacted] blew everything up. If that means making a 3 year starter a player that comes off the bench for 5-10 minutes a game, then I'm fine with that because no player is bigger than the Program. It's not like it hasn't happened before, during Downey's freshman season he took the starting job away from Hicks, which is ironic because Downey lost his starting job to CP3.

One good game since his return? I guess you didn't watch him guard Ben Simmons and grab 12 HUGE rebounds in the road win against LSU. Wake doesn't win that game without CMM and you're absolutely delusional if you think otherwise.

This is such an asinine line of reasoning, I can't believe I'm wasting my time to even bother to respond.

"Wilbekin and Mitchell have been the primary players that have lost minutes," you say. You know it's Mitchell Wilbekin, right? Wilbekin came into the Louisville game averaging 32.8 minutes per game, and averaged 30.25 in the first four games CMM was back in the mix. HUGE difference.

If you're concerned about Bryant Crawford's minutes, he came into the UL game averaging 30.3 minutes per game and has averaged 27.8 minutes in the five games since CMM has returned.

Clearly, returning from this injury is more of a process than probably everyone would have imagined, but this team is going to need Codi Miller-McIntyre as this season continues to advance.

 

[wfu22fan]

Is he really arguing that Cavanaugh isn't an ACC player?

He's the best player on a 12-2 team that has beaten six Power 5 teams this year already. Averaging 16 and 7, while shooting 57/41/85.

This is 2 years later. He wasn't an ACC level player while at WFU. He played below the net. No athleticism , some skill, good free throw shooter, 35% 3 point shooter.

 

[wfu22fan]

Impressive- 1:15 p.m. and already drunk as a skunk.

I don't drink. You are a moron dude.

 

[Wrangor]

Is he really arguing that Cavanaugh isn't an ACC player?

He's the best player on a 12-2 team that has beaten six Power 5 teams this year already. Averaging 16 and 7, while shooting 57/41/85.

I knew Cav was going to be a player. PH and I both iirc. He had all the tools just needed time and strength. I see a guard version of him in Richard Washington.

 

[BamaDeac]

One good game since his return? I guess you didn't watch him guard Ben Simmons and grab 12 HUGE rebounds in the road win against LSU. Wake doesn't win that game without CMM and you're absolutely delusional if you think otherwise.

This is such an asinine line of reasoning, I can't believe I'm wasting my time to even bother to respond.

"Wilbekin and Mitchell have been the primary players that have lost minutes," you say. You know it's Mitchell Wilbekin, right? Wilbekin came into the Louisville game averaging 32.8 minutes per game, and averaged 30.25 in the first four games CMM was back in the mix. HUGE difference.

If you're concerned about Bryant Crawford's minutes, he came into the UL game averaging 30.3 minutes per game and has averaged 27.8 minutes in the five games since CMM has returned.

Clearly, returning from this injury is more of a process than probably everyone would have imagined, but this team is going to need Codi Miller-McIntyre as this season continues to advance.

I apologize, I was referring to McCliton's minutes being affected not Mitchell (I will admit that I am human, and that I got my M's messed up). As for the Wilkbien's minutes being reduced since the return of CMM, then here they are:

NC-Grenn: 35
Coastal: 21
Xavier: 37
LSU: 24
Louisville: 17

Since CMM's return he is averaging 26.8 minutes a game. Before CMM's return he was averaging 34 minutes a game, with only 1 game below 30 minutes and 6 games over 34 minutes. I would say that a decease of roughly 7 minutes a game or 17.5% of an entire game is a significant decrease in playing time

BTW, I love how you don't include his minutes from Louisville just to make your "argument" look better. If you want to make a valid argument about his playing time being affected, then you need to show his playing time before CMM returned and after CMM returned. This means you show his playing time of the 8 games before CMM played and then the 5 games after CMM returned. Furthermore, you can't cherrypick Wilbekin's minutes to only include only 4 of the 5 games since CMM's return, not to mention that the one game you leave out, Louisville, included his season low in minutes played.

Furthermore, if you read my post, then you would see that I mention that CMM's primary strength is his defense. I have no problem with him coming off the bench for 5-15 minutes as a defensive specialist.

 

[LesJohns3D]

You probably need to refine your thoughts a little more. I think CMM is just fine. 20 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists. He clearly should have been only playing 5-10 minutes tonight.

What do you have now?