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Morgan Freeman dismisses "white privilege"

jhmd2000 said:
BECAUSE IT IS! What don't you believe about the data?

To your second question, again. Yes. And again, and?
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So the same choices lead to different results for people based on a specific characteristic of that group and you think that it's not worth discussing and is just an "unproductive persecution narrative?"

And for the love of fucking god JHMD, nobody NOBODY NOBODY on these boards thinks that personal responsibility is not a step to success. Shut the fuck up about that. People are going beyond the initial step you've taken and are talking about further embedded issues EVEN IF PEOPLE TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. You are not going past step one. Use your brain. God damnit you have to be smarter than you act on here.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Reading with an ounce of good faith includes not editing people's posts. It is without question a lie that a speech about privilege will not feed your family.
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Oh, I didn't realize we were talking about ideas that worked immedietely. Hmm, well I haven't ever seen the nutritional facts on a condom wrapper or a marriage certificate, but I suppose you can put barbecue sauce on anything.
 
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Anyways I let obvious troll keep trolling so I'll return to my original point: people just need to yank those bootstraps as hard as possible. If you aint movin you aint yankin hard enough.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Oh, I didn't realize we were talking about ideas that worked immedietely. Hmm, well I haven't ever seen the nutritional facts on a condom wrapper or a marriage certificate, but I suppose you can put barbecue sauce on anything.
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And you just ruined your whole argument. You CAN in fact put bbq sauce on anything.
 
The reason it is so easy to dismiss your success cocktail of traditional family, good education, and work is that that is a) not available to everyone and b) has been shown to not address racial disparity in this country. Necessary, but not sufficient.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I don't think anybody is saying that a very good safeguard against falling into poverty isn't personal responsibility which you tote, again, in true JHMDBot fashion. The discussion is whether people of color, specifically, have lower rates of success overall relative to white people if they're doing the exact same thing. In other words if Person A is black and Person B is white and they live identical lives and make identical choices, will Person A have an overall lower rate of success in upward mobility, getting out of poverty (you choose the metric)? That's where the privilege speech helps. If there is a disparity between the same choices made by the same types of people and the results that follow is that not something that policy should address? And if not, how is not and why is it not?

Nobody is saying "personal responsibility doesn't matter because I'm black." People are saying "personal responsibility alone if you are black does not mean that the same results will be produced as if a white person did the exact same thing." I think that's an issue and apparently you don't think it's one worthy of even being pointed out. You seem to view it as just an unproductive persecution narrative.
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Why isn't the discussion, what's the best thing for people---of any color---to do? Am I less poor or more poor because of what someone else has or does not have? Are grading need on a curve now?
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
The reason it is so easy to dismiss your success cocktail of traditional family, good education, and work is that that is a) not available to everyone and b) has been shown to not address racial disparity in this country. Necessary, but not sufficient.
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Do you know how babies are made? Who doesn't have a free public education in America?
 
Good education and living-wage jobs are not available to everyone. That is a fact.
 
jhmd2000 said:
I think my party is behind on those issues, and we (GOP/US) should do more. I think the parties should meet in the middle (the right could tone down the unproductive, blow-hardy Puritanical birth control-phobia, and the left could lose the unproductive persecution narrative; both of which may be "right" in each of their beloved doctrines but neither will solve a 2016 problem). I can say with certainty I am not scared of birth control in schools, and don't know the name of the Tunnels poster who is (feel free to point him or her out). But you can't sharpen a pencil here or elsewhere with hearing about privilege/persecution narrative. Why? Whose problem does that solve?

I would think of all people, you KenPomerarians would want to go where the data takes us, and the data says "Build your family with wisdom, complete your free education and work" triumvirate is the single best safeguard against falling into poverty, regardless of your race. I will concede that hiding the birth control doesn't work (and hence, have never advocated it, and would be fine with efforts to enthusiastically expand its proliferation), but if we keep watering down the "choices" discussion with the privilege/persecution speech, I have a hard time believing you want THAT message out there. It seems to me that empowering effect of "this is what you can do" isn't watered down by your beloved "but it won't matter, because #privilege." Well, it damned sure will matter, and we both know it. How does the privilege/persecution speech help, again?
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I can totally agree with all of this. I think the differences we have are how government makes people get married and plan families with this aim. I will purposefully leave race out of my explanation to focus on the logistics:

I believe that with higher wages comes more marriage and settling down, when people have hope that the personal responsibility they are going to take is actually going to produce the result you speak of. You and I have seen the data showing it does, but I have to believe there are some poor 18, 19, 20 year olds out there about to embark on adulthood who are certain that there is no real hope for them, and all around they see the wealthy bankers and the ownership class getting rich and setting the rules and the working class getting very, very little to nothing for their hard work. It's not like the 50s any more. They have seen their parent's houses get foreclosed on and the wealthy class blaming them for it. They have seen their folks working multiple jobs and not getting ahead, and the wealthy class calling them lazy. They have seen their parents thrown in jail and harassed by cops for minor offenses while the bankers rewrite the rules and pilfer millions with no penalty.

I have never denied the value of personal responsibility in financial success and have lived my life by that philosophy as you have. I don't want to make excuses for large swaths of people, but when you talk about what the government can do to encourage the behavior, well there has to be something tangible/structural and not just rhetoric.

1) increase the minimum wage
2) single-payer healthcare
3) major government jobs programs
3) condoms and sex ed at schools
4) increased teacher pay and investment in public schools
5) legalized pot and prison reform, community policing
 
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WakeandBake said:
..
.
1) increase the minimum wage
2) single-payer healthcare
3) major government jobs programs
3) condoms and sex ed at schools
4) increased teacher pay and investment in public schools
5) legalized pot and prison reform, community policing
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Let me take a crack at this one...
Why should we reward bad behavior? The last 50 years of welfare programs have failed, I don't think we should double down. Many of the changes you've listed will be unnesessary if people start taking personal responsibility for themselves. Morgan Freeman believes these people are capable of pulling themselves up, why don't you?
 
I'll play..

This is not rewarding bad behavior. This is the ownership class making some sacrifices for the working class. That used to happen in America, when people were paid a fair wage for a hard days work, and had a little pension to grow old on. Who ultimately paid for that? Owners/shareholders did by taking less. A young man or woman coming out of hisgh schjool or college could go start a family with some hard work and have a decent life, not on the dole.

I believe as that "American Dream" (can't stand that term for some reason) was milked away by greed at the top, so slid the family structure jhmd advocates. Not the other way around.

edit for clarification: I believe jhmd's theory is that the poor and working classes have been coddled too much by liberals who came along in the 60's and started throwing taxpayer money at them instead of expecting hard work from them. (The soft bigotry of low expectations). It is unclear if he believed liberals 1) are just dumb and created this problem with good but misinformed intentions, 2) just don't think the working class is good enough to succeed on its own without their help, or 3) if liberals are nefarious and did this to create a dependent voting bloc. Depends which thread you ask him.
 
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WakeandBake said:
I'll play..

This is not rewarding bad behavior. This is the ownership class making some sacrifices for the working class. That used to happen in America, when people were paid a fair wage for a hard days work, and had a little pension to grow old on. Who ultimately paid for that? Owners/shareholders did by taking less. A young man or woman coming out of hisgh schjool or college could go start a family with some hard work and have a decent life off the dole.

I believe as that "American Dream" (can't stand that term for some reason) was milked away by greed at the top, so did the family structure jhmd advocates. Not the other way around.

edit for clarification: I believe jhmd's theory is that the poor and working classes have been coddled too much by liberals who came along in the 60's and started throwing taxpayer money at them instead of expecting hard work from them. (The soft bigotry of low expectations). It is unclear if he believed liberals 1) are just dumb and created this problem with good but misinformed intentions, 2) just don't think the working class is good enough to succeed on its own without their help, or 3) if liberals are nefarious and did this to create a dependent voting bloc. Depends which thread you ask him.
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You forgot: the liberals just wanted to feel good about themselves, even if they weren't helping the poor like they claimed to be helping the poor. The liberals wanted to feel superior, and enjoy their wealth comfortably without pangs of conscience.
 
i'll tell you what kind of welfare has worked, dat mortgage interest deductioooooooon
 
sailordeac said:
You forgot: the liberals just wanted to feel good about themselves, even if they weren't helping the poor like they claimed to be helping the poor. The liberals wanted to feel superior, and enjoy their wealth comfortably without pangs of conscience.
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Pretty sure there is some truth in here.
 
Im pretty sure you're attempting to be funny but with you it's hard to tell and the humor is lost
 
sailordeac said:
You forgot: the liberals just wanted to feel good about themselves, even if they weren't helping the poor like they claimed to be helping the poor. The liberals wanted to feel superior, and enjoy their wealth comfortably without pangs of conscience.
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Yep: Hillary voters.
 
Wrangor said:
Pretty sure there is some truth in here.
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I can only speak for myself, but I know that when I am personally helping someone or advocating for the government to focus on inequality, it has nothing to do with needing to feel superior to someone else.

I will admit that I feel a twinge of intellectual superiority when I see certain types of posts on facebook from people like Chas McFarland, because they are unable to make a coherent political statement without resorting to xenophobia, racism, or conspiracy theories. These are the people who post about the heritage of the confederate flag, and call Obama a muslim who hates America.
 
Everyone loves to feel superior. If this board is representative in any way to reality then liberals more than most.
 
Wrangor said:
Everyone loves to feel superior. If this board is representative in any way to reality then liberals more than most.
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Yeah, no pro-life folks try to act superior about their beliefs. Especially on this board.

Maybe we should talk about #twoparenthouseholds again.
 
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