ImTheCaptain
I disagree with you
ok, let's talk about more accessible reproductive education and healthcare, especially for women
Morgan Freeman dismisses "white privilege"
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ok, let's talk about more accessible reproductive education and healthcare, especially for women
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
Let's pause and fact check real quick.
Negative employment bias towards "black" names? Myth
Negative housing bias towards "black" names? Myth
Racial red line housing descrimination? Myth
Extreme racial disparity in law enforcement of crack vs cocaine? Myth
Generations of voter suppression, intimidation, and unequal representation continuing to this very day? Myth
Yep, nothing to see here guys, all poor people got it the same, black people are just making bad choices. You may continue with your racially blind prosperity gospel narrative.
Negative employment bias towards "black" names? Myth
Negative housing bias towards "black" names? Myth
Racial red line housing descrimination? Myth
Extreme racial disparity in law enforcement of crack vs cocaine? Myth
Generations of voter suppression, intimidation, and unequal representation continuing to this very day? Myth
Yep, nothing to see here guys, all poor people got it the same, black people are just making bad choices. You may continue with your racially blind prosperity gospel narrative.
Nobody said "Myth", but I am asking you which factors are a) most easily changed and b) are statistically more likely to lead to lasting change. Person A has a lot more control over Person A's choices than he does over the privately held opinions of Persons B-300,000,000xZ, right?
Please demonstrate some of that famous nuance and see if you can find some space between "Nothing to see here" and "Pragmatically, let's start with what we can actually control."
Wakeforest22890
Snowpom
IIRC the former confederate states refused to ratify the 14th amendment but were coerced into doing so as each state only got representation back in Congress if they ratified the amendment. I don't imagine that sort of coercive threat today since we're not in a post-civil war era, there is no debt to be forgiven/leveraged/used as a factor, half the nation didn't try to break away and have to get representation back in Congress, and the issue of slavery is not recently on our minds.
WFFaithful
Well-known member
Everybody knows diplomacy doesn't work. Carpet-bombing is the only way.
Wakeforest22890
Snowpom
The privilege discussion is not intended to replace "choices as connected to outcomes" but rather supplement why the same choices produce different outcomes for different groups of people (whether this be based on race, SES, gender, etc.)
I'll take you at your word, but I confess this is not always easy to discern. See for example, how we formulate policy.
Wakeforest22890
Snowpom
I don't understand what this means.
Also you didn't try to discern very much either, as soon as "privilege" came up on the boards you rebuked it at every turn and drew it up as mutually exclusive with personal responsibility.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
There's nothing pragmatic about your mindset. It's ridiculous that you believe you have more control over the marraige rate of poor blacks than embedded societal racism among whites.
To be more specific: you believe it's easier to increase the marriage rate of poor blacks in Ferguson than to undue recent gerrymeandering which prevents accurate black representation on the Ferguson City Council? (this same racism occurs in thousands of local governments across the country)
You believe it's easier to increase the marraige rate among poor blacks than is to clean up and repair the public schools of poor detroit, which are riddled with black mold from leaky ceilings, rodents, and broken utilities?
You believe it's easier to increase the marriage rate among poor blacks than to is to address the racial disparity in drug law enforcement?
I could go on for a long time.
Please try to read with an ounce of good faith.
I don't believe I (or you, or her, or him, or any of us, or all of us) am going to be able to solve either someone else's family structure problem, or someone else's inner feelings. I would love to, but it doesn't matter what you and I think. It matters what they will do. What your or I want/hope/wish could not be less relevant. It wouldn't be hard to argue it isn't even our business.
What they CAN do is plan their OWN family in a way that is demonstrably more likely to prepare them for success. They have the same chance you and I do of impacting someone else's inner feelings: none. What YOU can do is stop lying to them that when they don't, it was because of a lack of privilege, because the data is in that a structured family in the black community is MORE likely to succeed than an unstructured family of any community (including, yes, a white one). Do you think that is valuable information for them to have? If so, why do you fight that message so hard?
ImTheCaptain
I disagree with you
so instead of not-talking about the issue by hiding in the 'priviledge' or 'expectation' quagmire, what about a substantive step like boosting funding for reproductive education and women's health
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
It's interesting to me how quickly jhmd's fascination with black family planning flips from regressive re-direction of government assistance to pamphlet philosophy. Trying to pin him down to a single idea is like chasing the road runner. C'est la vie! I guess we'll always have community gardens to think about.
Community gardens will feed more families than feel good lies about privilege.
JuiceCrewAllStar
Whole Milk Drinker
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What is the lie?
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
I think my party is behind on those issues, and we (GOP/US) should do more. I think the parties should meet in the middle (the right could tone down the unproductive, blow-hardy Puritanical birth control-phobia, and the left could lose the unproductive persecution narrative; both of which may be "right" in each of their beloved doctrines but neither will solve a 2016 problem). I can say with certainty I am not scared of birth control in schools, and don't know the name of the Tunnels poster who is (feel free to point him or her out). But you can't sharpen a pencil here or elsewhere with hearing about privilege/persecution narrative. Why? Whose problem does that solve?
I would think of all people, you KenPomerarians would want to go where the data takes us, and the data says "Build your family with wisdom, complete your free education and work" triumvirate is the single best safeguard against falling into poverty, regardless of your race. I will concede that hiding the birth control doesn't work (and hence, have never advocated it, and would be fine with efforts to enthusiastically expand its proliferation), but if we keep watering down the "choices" discussion with the privilege/persecution speech, I have a hard time believing you want THAT message out there. It seems to me that empowering effect of "this is what you can do" isn't watered down by your beloved "but it won't matter, because #privilege." Well, it damned sure will matter, and we both know it. How does the privilege/persecution speech help, again?
Wakeforest22890
Snowpom
He's trying so hard to discern in good faith what others are saying though! "Not always easy to discern" - immediately goes back to his JHMDBot mode about privilege being lies and personal responsibility being the path to success.
Let's try this a different way, although I think we've done this before.
JHMD do you believe there are barriers facing specific groups of individuals who share common characteristics that decreases their upward mobility and/or chances of succeeding in areas of life relative to other groups of individuals who do not share the common characteristics of the first group?
Reading with an ounce of good faith includes not editing people's posts. It is without question a lie that a speech about privilege will not feed your family.
BECAUSE IT IS! What don't you believe about the data?
To your second question, again. Yes. And again, and?
Wakeforest22890
Snowpom
I don't think anybody is saying that a very good safeguard against falling into poverty isn't personal responsibility which you tote, again, in true JHMDBot fashion. The discussion is whether people of color, specifically, have lower rates of success overall relative to white people if they're doing the exact same thing. In other words if Person A is black and Person B is white and they live identical lives and make identical choices, will Person A have an overall lower rate of success in upward mobility, getting out of poverty (you choose the metric)? That's where the privilege speech helps. If there is a disparity between the same choices made by the same types of people and the results that follow is that not something that policy should address? And if not, how is not and why is it not?
Nobody is saying "personal responsibility doesn't matter because I'm black." People are saying "personal responsibility alone if you are black does not mean that the same results will be produced as if a white person did the exact same thing." I think that's an issue and apparently you don't think it's one worthy of even being pointed out. You seem to view it as just an unproductive persecution narrative.
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