Conservative War on Education

[sailordeac]

I'm just waiting for someone to read the article I posted about charters and choice in Detroit.

Yeah, I read the article. Hard to believe that there are no good, or at least better, choices at all. But that's what the NYT said. Somehow, though I still think there might be some better, even good, choices to make. In any event I think that ultimately parents are responsible for finding the best possible schools for their children. But perhaps some, maybe many, parents are, for this or that reason, not able to make the best choices and need some help. This is where I think Black leadership could do some significant work. Set up an advising system for parents, who need help in making good decisions for their kids. Now, wouldn't that really help to make Black lives matter.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

I heard on here it's a socioeconomic issue more than a color issue

 

[sailordeac]

Black leadership can't help non-Black people? Man, are you sure you want to suggest that?

 

[PhDeac]

Yeah, I read the article. Hard to believe that there are no good, or at least better, choices at all. But that's what the NYT said. Somehow, though I still think there might be some better, even good, choices to make. In any event I think that ultimately parents are responsible for finding the best possible schools for their children. But perhaps some, maybe many, parents are, for this or that reason, not able to make the best choices and need some help. This is where I think Black leadership could do some significant work. Set up an advising system for parents, who need help in making good decisions for their kids. Now, wouldn't that really help to make Black lives matter.

I'm not sure understood what's going on. Setting up schools around choices creates a system of winners and losers in which parents are scrambling around trying to make sure they're not losers and end up losing anyway. The free market approach is fine for businesses. If I used to shop at Linens 'n Things and I have to shop at Bed, Bath, and Beyond now, it's not that disruptive. But if a student goes to XYZ Charter and it closes down because ABC Charter is giving out $50 gift cards and getting the best students, that's not a good system.

The goal should be to set up a public school system without competition with the goal of making all schools as strong as they can be and responsive to the needs of the local population.

 

[sailordeac]

competition is a part of life, good leadership helps people compete successfully, you are not going to get rid of competition, nor should you

if your school is not the best, it's the parents job to help it or force it to improve, its the leadership's job to help the parents

public schools themselves vary considerably in quality

 

[PhDeac]

Competition is fine if we don't want everybody to be successful. We do want all schools to be successful because we want all students to be successful. This quote nails it.

In February, four prominent Detroit Republican business executives, including two sons of former governors, testified in support of the plan before the Legislature, arguing that 20 years had proved that the free market alone is not enough to improve schools. One of them, Mr. Romney, likened schools to a public utility.
“This is a public service, this isn’t just a business,” he said in a recent interview. “I don’t believe in the free market for police or fire.”

 

[knowell]

The goal should be to set up a public school system without competition with the goal of making all schools as strong as they can be and responsive to the needs of the local population.

I am sure that worked well for Uncle Joe (Stalin).

 

[knowell]

Competition is fine if we don't want everybody to be successful. We do want all schools to be successful because we want all students to be successful. This quote nails it.

Lack of competition is fine if we want everyone to be equally unsuccessful.

 

[sailordeac]

public, private, denominational, or secular, or charter, without parents' help and pressure, schools will usually not be very successful, and if the parents for some reason cannot, or don't know how, to help, then the community leadership needs to help them find the right schools, or improve the schools they have

 

[bym051d]

Can we all agree that charter schools are an attempt to funnel money away from public schools so middle class and above kids don't have to be distracted by lower class kids?

 

[knowell]

Can we all agree that charter schools are an attempt to funnel money away from public schools so middle class and above kids don't have to be distracted by lower class kids?

No.

 

[PhDeac]

I am sure that worked well for Uncle Joe (Stalin).

Lack of competition is fine if we want everyone to be equally unsuccessful.

public, private, denominational, or secular, or charter, without parents' help and pressure, schools will usually not be very successful, and if the parents for some reason cannot, or don't know how, to help, then the community leadership needs to help them find the right schools, or improve the schools they have

Evidence to support the title of this thread. Conservatives actually want educational system with winners and losers instead of equal opportunity.

 

[bym051d]

No.

What are they, then?

Are they required to provide bussing?

 

[jhmd2000]

On the contrary, I engaged with your substantive posts. Instead of engaging with those posts, you went with the tried and true "if you disagree with me, you must want everywhere to be like DETROIT". Instead of playing that dog-eared old Democrats = Detroit = 923 card, why don't you try defending the conservative "reforms" you say you are so proud of? Surely you must have some data that shows student performance improvement in R-controlled, non-unionized Louisiana*, Kansas, and North Carolina? What with all that choice and reform and budget cutting and all?* Turns out that Detroit is all about choice too, they just forgot about the accountability piece I guess.

*Hint: you can find some promising results in New Orleans if you try. Too bad their higher education system only has enough money for football teams and pet tigers.


ETA: For the record, I agreed with your "dissenting opinion" that two-parent households are excellent predictors of success. You and I shall proceed, arm-in-arm, in steadfast opposition to all the haters that deny our shared dissenting opinion that two parent households are the best way to raise children. I shall dissent to the bitter end with you on this one, friend, come what may!

I enjoy the idea that continuing to throw money at a broken system---but leave the problem teachers and lack of accountability in place---just moar money----or you're in a "War on Education" is a thing. Seems to be working great.

The District of Columbia system spends $29,000.00 per pupil and 83% of 8th graders were not proficient in reading. 83%! Link. They're not even allowed to convert the failing schools---America's most expensive, per student---to charters.

Which party do you think is a) running that failed system and b) fighting the reforms to Republican-favored charters?

 

[Deacon923]

Lack of competition is fine if we want everyone to be equally unsuccessful.

Competition is not always good in every realm of human endeavor. It absolutely has its place, and properly applied, creates great human wealth. I think it should be more common in our economy at large, i.e. our anti-trust regulators need to do a much more aggressive job in keeping monopolies from forming like they did in the 50s and 60s. But it is not always the best solution. It's not working in the medical sector (most "competition" in the western world, highest prices in the western world), the results are mixed at best, and very harmful at worst, in education.

 

[Deacon923]

I enjoy the idea that continuing to throw money at a broken system---but leave the problem teachers and lack of accountability in place---just moar money----or you're in a "War on Education" is a thing. Seems to be working great.

The District of Columbia system spends $29,000.00 per pupil and 83% of 8th graders were not proficient in reading. 83%! Link. They're not even allowed to convert the failing schools---America's most expensive, per student---to charters.

Which party do you think is a) running that failed system and b) fighting the reforms to Republican-favored charters?

Why am I required to defend the Democratic administration of Washington, DC, while you steadfastly refuse to defend the Republican administrations of NC, Kansas, and Louisiana? You were the one who stated expressly that the Republicans are your team and they're the ones with all the "reforms". I have never stated that Democrats are my team or that they have all the right answers. When have I ever defended the proposition of "throwing money at a broken system"? I have certainly attacked the approach of breaking a pretty good system by depriving it of money, though.

Well I have to go over to my daughter's public school and spend some time with her teachers and classmates for Back to School night. Y'all solve this while I'm gone.

 

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

Wait, why is competition a priori a good thing?

 

[sailordeac]

Evidence to support the title of this thread. Conservatives actually want educational system with winners and losers instead of equal opportunity.

you're like a hapless student floundering on an oral exam, you get a lifeline question to save yourself, instead you treat it like a rock and sink to the bottom

 

[jhmd2000]

Why am I required to defend the Democratic administration of Washington, DC, while you steadfastly refuse to defend the Republican administrations of NC, Kansas, and Louisiana? You were the one who stated expressly that the Republicans are your team and they're the ones with all the "reforms". I have never stated that Democrats are my team or that they have all the right answers. When have I ever defended the proposition of "throwing money at a broken system"? I have certainly attacked the approach of breaking a pretty good system by depriving it of money, though.

Well I have to go over to my daughter's public school and spend some time with her teachers and classmates for Back to School night. Y'all solve this while I'm gone.

The title of this thread is __________________________.

 

[PhDeac]

you're like a hapless student floundering on an oral exam, you get a lifeline question to save yourself, instead you treat it like a rock and sink to the bottom

If I didn't know better, I'd swear sailor was a :noSAT Deac because those analogies are horrible.