F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

[DeaconSig]

And one of the facts/circumstances is that more American people like football than soccer. The soccer folks ignoring that doesn't help their cause, they need to accept it and try to work around that bias.

Good try, but that is not the argument. The argument is that you said it is ok for someone to ignore the possibility of funding soccer because they have an inherent bias against it. That has nothing to do with considering whether one is more popular than the other.

 

[DeaconSig]

Close to it. I have a deaf child. No fucking way have I or will I ever let him use that as an excuse. He just has to work that much harder to succeed, and he knows it. Not sit there and whine and wait for the world to conform to him. And guess what? He crushes the "normal" kids in both school and athletics. Excuses are for losers.

So you can't understand the difference between the world making reasonable accommodations for a legitimate problem and using that problem as a crutch?

Sure you aren't making any changes for him? How is that non-charter public school where you are sending your son?

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Good try, but that is not the argument. The argument is that you said it is ok for someone to ignore the possibility of funding soccer because they have an inherent bias against it. That has nothing to do with considering whether one is more popular than the other.

Sure it does, if the claim is that the bias is generated by the institutional popularity of soccer in American society. The popularity is causing the bias, which is then reflected again the funding, which perpetuates the popularity.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

Sure it does, if the claim is that the bias is generated by the institutional popularity of soccer in American society. The popularity is causing the bias, which is then reflected again the funding, which perpetuates the popularity.

well, maybe popularity but probably familiarity

but you don't see an issue with this, at all?

 

[PhDeac]

Again, what is wrong with that? That is life experience. If I burn my hand on an electric range, is it wrong that I am hesitant to touch a propane grill?

So using this analogy, 2&2 thinks it's up to the grill to just deal with it and he doesn't need to be personally responsible for making sure he works with the grill in the correct way.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

So you can't understand the difference between the world making reasonable accommodations for a legitimate problem and using that problem as a crutch?

Sure you aren't making any changes for him? How is that non-charter public school where you are sending your son?

Sure I can understand the difference. When it comes to blatant conspicuous issues, reasonable accommodations are appropriate. But looking for subconscious, implicit bias is just looking for that crutch and enabling the excuse. There is no way that is going to be eradicated enough to make a difference, so worrying about it is creating the crutch. It is looking for an expectation that doesn't exist. Control what you can control and push forward.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

well, maybe popularity but probably familiarity

but you don't see an issue with this, at all?

No. If people like football then let them like football.

 

[tigerswood]

So you can't understand the difference between the world making reasonable accommodations for a legitimate problem and using that problem as a crutch?

Sure you aren't making any changes for him? How is that non-charter public school where you are sending your son?

Come on man. You're making yourself look like a fool. Non one is stating we shouldn't make accommodations for handicapped people.

But people who don't view or treat their handicap (or other disadvantage) as an excuse for failure/mediocrity are much more likely to have success; academically, athletically, financially, you name it. They will outperform the people with a "woe is me" attitude who expect preferential treatment 100% of the time.

 

[Deacsfan27]

Come on man. You're making yourself look like a fool. Non one is stating we shouldn't make accommodations for handicapped people.

But people who don't view or treat their handicap (or other disadvantage) as an excuse for failure/mediocrity are much more likely to have success, academically, athletically, financially, you name it. They will outperform the people with a "woe is me" attitude who expect preferential treatment 100% of the time.

Most people of color don't expect "preferential treatment", they just want "equal treatment".

I'm just pointing this out as a semantics note. Not trying to go down the Affirmative Action road again.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

No. If people like football then let them like football.

really feels like you're trolling right now

 

[PhDeac]

Most people of color don't expect "preferential treatment", they just want "equal treatment".

I'm just pointing this out as a semantics note. Not trying to go down the Affirmative Action road again.

This. But people who treat people unequally consider equal treatment to be preferential.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Come on man. You're making yourself look like a fool. Non one is stating we shouldn't make accommodations for handicapped people.

But people who don't view or treat their handicap (or other disadvantage) as an excuse for failure/mediocrity are much more likely to have success; academically, athletically, financially, you name it. They will outperform the people with a "woe is me" attitude who expect preferential treatment 100% of the time.

Exactly. There are few things as strong as the human competitive spirit. Tapping into and challenging that spirit, and focusing on the positives about what they control, is going to generate a better outcome for that person in almost every aspect of life than trying to give them excuses why they can't do something.

 

[DeaconSig]

Come on man. You're making yourself look like a fool. Non one is stating we shouldn't make accommodations for handicapped people.

But people who don't view or treat their handicap (or other disadvantage) as an excuse for failure/mediocrity are much more likely to have success; academically, athletically, financially, you name it. They will outperform the people with a "woe is me" attitude who expect preferential treatment 100% of the time.

Nice way to win an argument against a position no one is taking.

We realize the world is not set up to allow people with various handicaps to succeed. So we make accommodations to give them the best chance to be successful. And some, if not all, of those accommodations come at the expense of other people's money or liberty.

If we are all predisposed to look at someone in a way that, before we have any other information on them, makes us discount their abilities or character, is that not something we might want to consider in figuring out how best to make our society work? Very few people in this country live in a completely homogeneous environment. If you don't think figuring out how better to get each of us to see someone else as a person first and an "other" second is worthwhile, then that's on you.

And if teachers, cops, judges, or other public officials are more likely to treat someone unfairly solely because of their skin color, gender, or ethnicity, then that is a problem as well. And figuring out ways to lessen those effects is also worthwhile.

 

[DeaconSig]

Exactly. There are few things as strong as the human competitive spirit. Tapping into and challenging that spirit, and focusing on the positives about what they control, is going to generate a better outcome for that person in almost every aspect of life than trying to give them excuses why they can't do something.

Challenging someone to succeed and telling them to figure out how to cope while deaf with no hearing aids, computer programs, or hotel rooms that flash when the fire alarm goes off are two different things. I understand you won't concede the point, but I also know you do that for your son. Both my boys have special needs. And I would never let either of them use it as an excuse. But you damn well better believe I expect their school (public, no less!) to make accommodations to give them the best chance to succeed.

 

[tigerswood]

Most people of color don't expect "preferential treatment", they just want "equal treatment".

I'm just pointing this out as a semantics note. Not trying to go down the Affirmative Action road again.

Yea, I was mostly talking about how ludicrous it is to make it seem like some people on here would be opposed to reasonable accommodations for blind/deaf/handicapped people.

However, 39.6% of welfare recipients are black, compared to just 13.2% of the population. Obviously, financial assistance it is not the same type of preferential treatment as braille for a blind person. In some cases, the "woe is me" attitude with the expectation that government will (and is obligated) to provide financial support is a major factor in the continuation of poverty and a relative lack of success.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Most people of color don't expect "preferential treatment", they just want "equal treatment".

I'm just pointing this out as a semantics note. Not trying to go down the Affirmative Action road again.

Equal treatment to what? Virtually everyone except for a very, very small portion of the population (which is much, much smaller when relative to the entire world) has something that they could claim is holding them back. Focusing on that perception does them no good.

 

[tigerswood]

Nice way to win an argument against a position no one is taking.

We realize the world is not set up to allow people with various handicaps to succeed. So we make accommodations to give them the best chance to be successful. And some, if not all, of those accommodations come at the expense of other people's money or liberty.

If we are all predisposed to look at someone in a way that, before we have any other information on them, makes us discount their abilities or character, is that not something we might want to consider in figuring out how best to make our society work? Very few people in this country live in a completely homogeneous environment. If you don't think figuring out how better to get each of us to see someone else as a person first and an "other" second is worthwhile, then that's on you.

And if teachers, cops, judges, or other public officials are more likely to treat someone unfairly solely because of their skin color, gender, or ethnicity, then that is a problem as well. And figuring out ways to lessen those effects is also worthwhile.

Perhaps I misunderstood your initial post. I agree with this one almost 100%. Go Deacs.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Challenging someone to succeed and telling them to figure out how to cope while deaf with no hearing aids, computer programs, or hotel rooms that flash when the fire alarm goes off are two different things. I understand you won't concede the point, but I also know you do that for your son. Both my boys have special needs. And I would never let either of them use it as an excuse. But you damn well better believe I expect their school (public, no less!) to make accommodations to give them the best chance to succeed.

But making that reasonable accommodation is completely different from addressing or eliminating implicit bias, which is the discussion here. Positioning a classroom seat is perfectly reasonable. Expecting the art teacher not to have an implicit bias, and worrying about eliminating that implicit bias if it does exist, is a waste of time. Prove her wrong with the results if you are so concerned about it.

 

[PhDeac]

Yea, I was mostly talking about how ludicrous it is to make it seem like some people on here would be opposed to reasonable accommodations for blind/deaf/handicapped people.

However, 39.6% of welfare recipients are black, compared to just 13.2% of the population. Obviously, financial assistance it is not the same type of preferential treatment as braille for a blind person. In some cases, the "woe is me" attitude with the expectation that government will (and is obligated) to provide financial support is a major factor in the continuation of poverty and a relative lack of success.

Black people make up a larger number of welfare recipients because all things equal more people are biased against hiring black people.

You seem to acknowledge that biases exist but ignore the consequences.

 

[PhDeac]

But making that reasonable accommodation is completely different from addressing or eliminating implicit bias, which is the discussion here. Positioning a classroom seat is perfectly reasonable. Expecting the art teacher not to have an implicit bias, and worrying about eliminating that implicit bias if it does exist, is a waste of time. Prove her wrong with the results if you are so concerned about it.

So that propane grill needs to prove itself. Gotcha.