F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

[Deacsfan27]

Equal treatment to what? Virtually everyone except for a very, very small portion of the population (which is much, much smaller when relative to the entire world) has something that they could claim is holding them back. Focusing on that perception does them no good.

A few macro-examples:

Equal job opportunities (for equally qualified candidates)
Equal pay (for equally qualified jobs)
Equality in the justice system (right now there's up to 3x the sentences for the same committed crime)
Equality in policing (Racial profiling as proven by the DoJ)

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

So that propane grill needs to prove itself. Gotcha.

Yes, the propane grill needs to deal with the effects of being hot, because it is in fact hot.

 

[tigerswood]

A few macro-examples:

Equal job opportunities (for equally qualified candidates)
Equal pay (for equally qualified jobs)
Equality in the justice system (right now there's up to 3x the sentences for the same committed crime)
Equality in policing (Racial profiling as proven by the DoJ)

Not at all saying you are wrong, but would you care to site your sources? I've witnessed the inverse of this on multiple occasions.

 

[DeaconSig]

But making that reasonable accommodation is completely different from addressing or eliminating implicit bias, which is the discussion here. Positioning a classroom seat is perfectly reasonable. Expecting the art teacher not to have an implicit bias, and worrying about eliminating that implicit bias if it does exist, is a waste of time. Prove her wrong with the results if you are so concerned about it.

So you are against helping teachers realize that a kid is not a bad kid solely because they are black, and providing strategies that help that teacher compensate for a bias that might make them think that very thing. If that is the hill upon which you want to die, be my guest.

 

[tintinisahottie]

Black people make up a larger number of welfare recipients because all things equal more people are biased against hiring black people.

You think that's THE reason it's such a disproportionately high number? Wow

 

[Deacsfan27]

Not at all saying you are wrong, but would you care to site your sources? I've witnessed the inverse of this on multiple occasions.

Anecdotal evidence is really not a good way to back up an argument. Feelings don't equal the stats.

First example: 2003 Field Experiment showing stark results in hiring practices among prospective white and black citizens (http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873.pdf)

Second example: "Who Are The Unemployed" (https://tcfdotorg.atavist.com/who-are-the-unemployed)

Taken together, the results suggest education, age, sex, marital status, citizenship, and class of worker all matter for unemployment—sometimes in quite large ways.
But one factor stands apart: race.

Blacks are 4.4 percentage points more likely to be unemployed than whites. And that is among people statistically similar in ways other than race.
It’s worth emphasizing that percentage points are not the same thing as percentages. For context, note that among whites, the overall unemployment rate during the last year averaged 4.7 percent. Relative to this, an increase of 4.4 percentage points is a massive amount: it implies a percentage increase in unemployment of 94 percent. That is, blacks are about twice as likely as whites to be unemployed.

Other minorities are also considerably more likely to experience unemployment than whites: Native Americans by 4.3 percentage points, Hispanics by 0.7 percentage points, Asians by 0.6 percentage points, and those of mixed race by 3.5 percentage points.
Perhaps surprising to some, race matters even more than education, which is traditionally seen as the ultimate gateway to upward mobility.

Third example: "Racial, Gender wage gaps persist in U.S. Despite some progress (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...age-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress). This is a really interesting article and does cite a lot of potential reasons outside of racial composition that could explain some of the gaps, but it still leaves a reasonable gap once most other factors are accounted for:

However, looking just at those with a bachelor’s degree or more education, wage gaps by gender, race and ethnicity persist. College-educated black and Hispanic men earn roughly 80% the hourly wages of white college educated men ($25 and $26 vs. $32, respectively). White and Asian college-educated women also earn roughly 80% the hourly wages of white college-educated men ($25 and $27, respectively). However, black and Hispanic women with a college degree earn only about 70% the hourly wages of similarly educated white men ($23 and $22, respectively). As with workers overall, college-educated Asian men out-earn college-educated white men by about $3 per hour of work.

It has been brought up before, but one of the best ways (in my opinion at least) to figure out what can be done would be to look at the differences between Asian and Black cultures. They are obviously significantly different in the historical background as to how/why they assimilated/immigrated to America in the first place, and that explains a lot of the gap, but obviously not all of it either.

What makes Asians so successful in America, while Blacks tend to not be as successful (based on wages, employment, economic factors)? Are the differences something that be copied, or at its core are they too fundamentally different to compare each other to?

 

[ABCDeac]

Pre-K boys are way more dangerous and warrant way more scrutiny than Pre-K girls. As a rule, of course. But if you are just asking a teacher to look in on a group of four with nothing else to go on, that is who they should focus on. Doesn't explain the racial disparities, but didn't the study suggest that the bias went black male, white male, white female, black female? That doesn't suggest inherent racial bias to me nearly as much as gender bias, and the gender bias is totally justified for children of that age.

 

[Liquid Karma]

A few macro-examples:

Equal job opportunities (for equally qualified candidates)
Equal pay (for equally qualified jobs)
Equality in the justice system (right now there's up to 3x the sentences for the same committed crime)
Equality in policing (Racial profiling as proven by the DoJ)

Are you advocating for equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

 

[bobknightfan]

Black people make up a larger number of welfare recipients because all things equal more people are biased against hiring black people.

You seem to acknowledge that biases exist but ignore the consequences.

LOL. PH, you are the Spin King on the boards....though you have lots of competition.

And while we are on this "implicit bias" kick, I have a couple of questions:

1) Can black people have implicit bias, too.... or is implicit bias something reserved for only white people?

2) If everyone has implicit bias, how can you come up with an "Implicit bias Test" that is not itself implicitly biased to achieve a predetermined biased result?

You know what I think works better than implicit bias tests?

Stay in school, get an education, stay out of trouble, don't take drugs, get married and do not have children for whom you cannot provide.

That seems to have worked out pretty well for PH. Why is it that he thinks other people can't do that same thing?

 

[tigerswood]

Anecdotal evidence is really not a good way to back up an argument. Feelings don't equal the stats.

First example: 2003 Field Experiment showing stark results in hiring practices among prospective white and black citizens (http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873.pdf)

Second example: "Who Are The Unemployed" (https://tcfdotorg.atavist.com/who-are-the-unemployed)



Third example: "Racial, Gender wage gaps persist in U.S. Despite some progress (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...age-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress). This is a really interesting article and does cite a lot of potential reasons outside of racial composition that could explain some of the gaps, but it still leaves a reasonable gap once most other factors are accounted for:



It has been brought up before, but one of the best ways (in my opinion at least) to figure out what can be done would be to look at the differences between Asian and Black cultures. They are obviously significantly different in the historical background as to how/why they assimilated/immigrated to America in the first place, and that explains a lot of the gap, but obviously not all of it either.

What makes Asians so successful in America, while Blacks tend to not be as successful (based on wages, employment, economic factors)?

Well, I wasn't arguing with you. As I stated. And some of those statistics are troubling.

However, surely you agree that the higher African American unemployment rate isn't simply an issue of hiring practices.

 

[Deacsfan27]

Are you advocating for equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

I'm not sure if I'm exactly answering you, and I'm not trying to circumvent the question at all, but I would say equality of opportunity. Not just opportunity in the sense of the Rooney Rule in the NFL, but true opportunity throughout a lifetime in America. Not everything can be fixed just by "pulling yourself up by the bootstraps".

 

[Deacsfan27]

Well, I wasn't arguing with you. As I stated. And some of those statistics are troubling.

However, surely you agree that the higher African American unemployment rate isn't simply an issue of hiring practices.

There are many factors that go into unemployment rates and the discrepancy between black people, white people, and Asians. Of course it's not all attributable to just hiring practices of companies.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

just out of curiosity, BKF, over the course of your years managing your business(es), what percentage of your hires were black/non white

 

[PhDeac]

Well, I wasn't arguing with you. As I stated. And some of those statistics are troubling.

However, surely you agree that the higher African American unemployment rate isn't simply an issue of hiring practices.

Do you at least agree that hiring practices have something to do with who gets hired?

 

[Deacsfan27]

LOL. PH, you are the Spin King on the boards....though you have lots of competition.

And while we are on this "implicit bias" kick, I have a couple of questions:

1) Can black people have implicit bias, too.... or is implicit bias something reserved for only white people?

2) If everyone has implicit bias, how can you come up with an "Implicit bias Test" that is not itself implicitly biased to achieve a predetermined biased result?

You know what I think works better than implicit bias tests?

Stay in school, get an education, stay out of trouble, don't take drugs, get married and do not have children for whom you cannot provide.

That seems to have worked out pretty well for PH. Why is it that he thinks other people can't do that same thing?

1. Of course. Everybody in the world has implicit biases.
2. I'm not sure what this question is asking. Implicit bias tests weren't originally made to confirm that people are "inherently racist", or to cater to any liberal predetermined result. I'm guessing they were designed originally much like any other scientific experiment was: Hypothesis, testing, results phase, confirmation or rejection of hypothesis based on that study. If unclear, repeat until something is clear (or not clear).

Obviously we all agree with the final two lines that you have (minus maybe the marriage part, not sure exactly how that equates here except in the context of children). You seem to dismiss the reasons why people stumble into roadblocks and fall short of those achievements though. A lot of those are personal responsibility issues, and a lot of those lead to the notion that people are usually products of their environment. People born into rich/wealthy families tend to stay rich, while people born into poor/not well off families tend to stay poor. The cycle manifests itself throughout a lifetime in obvious ways (lack of money, resources, assistantance ), and not so obvious ways.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

2&2's argument, to me, seems to be that society treats some people better than others so you should just accept that and try harder instead of trying to address the issue that society treats some people better than others.

Sure, you should accept reality and adapt to it but that's not mutually exclusive with trying to make changes in society so that it treats people roughly the same.

Of course this also takes into account that 2&2 accepts that, yes, some people are treated better than others (as in, some people have to work harder). That seems to be at odds with some common refrains (frequently from 2&2 himself) that there is no systemic issue. If there's no systemic issue, then why or how are some people treated better than others?

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

2&2's argument, to me, seems to be that society treats some people better than others so you should just accept that and try harder instead of trying to address the issue that society treats some people better than others.

Sure, you should accept reality and adapt to it but that's not mutually exclusive with trying to make changes in society so that it treats people roughly the same.

Of course this also takes into account that 2&2 accepts that, yes, some people are treated better than others (as in, some people have to work harder). That seems to be at odds with some common refrains (frequently from 2&2 himself) that there is no systemic issue. If there's no systemic issue, then why or how are some people treated better than others?

There are definitely some systemic issues, but I think more often than not the PC crowd confuses aggregation of experience with systemic. If the DMV's licensing regulations are facially neutral, then there is not a systemic issue within the DMV. However, if in practice when aggregating the individual DMV inspectors, 85% of them have had unfavorable experiences with Asian women drivers, then that is an aggregation of experience. If the result is that the inspectors are in general tougher on Asian women drivers, then that is not a systemic issue but rather an aggregate reflection of reality. That doesn't mean the system needs to be changed, it means that Asian women need to be better drivers if they want to change the perception of them.

 

[DeaconSig]

There are definitely some systemic issues, but I think more often than not the PC crowd confuses aggregation of experience with systemic. If the DMV's licensing regulations are facially neutral, then there is not a systemic issue within the DMV. However, if in practice when aggregating the individual DMV inspectors, 85% of them have had unfavorable experiences with Asian women drivers, then that is an aggregation of experience. If the result is that the inspectors are in general tougher on Asian women drivers, then that is not a systemic issue but rather an aggregate reflection of reality. That doesn't mean the system needs to be changed, it means that Asian women need to be better drivers if they want to change the perception of them.

Sort of tough for 1 Asian driver to change the perspective of all of them. Even if she is a great driver.

 

[Deacsfan27]

This is clearly semantics, but I take systemic to mean the system as a whole, and results within a system are certainly included as "part of the system".

If somebody is consistently and provably not achieving at a certain level due to something completely outside of their control (especially gender or race), that is a systemic problem.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn if you think it's "systematic" or "aggregation of experience". Those are distractions that prevent us from discussing what is really at hand here. Somewhat similar to focusing on how CK is protesting instead of what he is protesting.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

If something is aggregated to a degree where the impact is across the board something is "tougher" for one group, isn't that by definition a "systemic" issue?

If there is an aggregation of experience from a large proportion of society that black people are troublemakers and a lot of those people are in power, then how is that not a systemic racial issue?